André Rieu

[Sid]

All of this said, I think you're a good guy Sid and I know you mean well...

Well thanks & that's okay, the way you put it there.

Maybe I reacted so strongly to your criticism not so much as to what you said, but I was just trying to express my positive appreciation of the life's work that many of our favourite composers and musicians have given (& continue to give) us. I'm very impressed with not only thier talent, skill and dedication, but also the pleasure that music brings to our lives - whatever type it is.

I know I have been critical & negative of some composers before on this forum. I'm as guilty as anyone else. But I'm over that negativity because it just doesn't make sense to me now. I think it's wrong to dismiss someone who has been immersed in music since they could pick up an instrument. I basically respect what they do, even though I like some things much more than others (all of us have our favourites). I especially respect members on this forum who are professional musicians, like Mr Henning. I also know that many other members here like yourself are very passionate & committed listeners, & their opinions are no less valid. But opinion has to be based on some kind of experience (knowledge is also handy, but it's not the "be all & end all).

The way I try to describe my experience with the music, I try to get something out of it (even if it's just tiny) rather than dismissing the whole box and dice. I try to steer myself away from gut reactions, although sometimes I do slip into making them - after all, I'm only human!  ...

[Florestan]

If Rieu moves you and sends you into deep thought

Still haven't heard Rieu, but... the idea that music which doesn't send one into deep thought is not worth hearing is one of the most pernicious and persistent Romantic myths. "Deep thought" is not the only human reality; "deep feeling", "deep joy", "deep enjoyment" and good ol' "deep fun" are also human.

[Sid]

Well, Mr Rieu now has his own thread! I suppose it's warranted since a lot of debate & discussion has happened about his music on the other thread.

Still haven't heard Rieu, but... the idea that music which doesn't send one into deep thought is not worth hearing is one of the most pernicious and persistent Romantic myths. "Deep thought" is not the only human reality; "deep feeling", "deep joy", "deep enjoyment" and good ol' "deep fun" are also human.

I think I agree with you there 110 per cent. I mean the first time that real fear was expressed in music was the final section in Mozart's Don Giovanni where the Don is sent to hell. I remember seeing a television doco about Mozart and someone notable stated this assessment, and it sounds true to me (even though my knowledge of pre-Classical era music is not as great as some of you here, but I am beginning to explore some of the great works of earlier periods). Many works before Don Giovanni had drama and passion in spades, much of it could raise one to great heights and express the subtlest of emotions. But in this work, which many consider to be Mozart's finest opera, fear came into the picture & it was "in your face." I only saw that scene once in my life on that tv doco, but it's ingrained in my memory, much more than any of the smattering of great operas I've seen.

So you're right. That kind of deep darkness that Mozart expressed in that work kind of laid down the template for future generations. & other geniuses of the time, whose music was lighter (such as Boccherini) were neglected and virtually thrown into the trash bin until just recently, when musicians, scholars and audiences have developed a more fuller picture of what is valuable in music. I basically value it all across the spectrum to the more lighter things. I mean, wasn't Offenbach, the master of French operetta and burlesque, called "The Mozart of the Champs Elysses in his time?" I'm sure that comparison wasn't made lightly back then, nor is it now. Mozart's lighter music is much more valued today than it was say a hundred years ago, as is Boccherini's or Offenbach's. We now have a more balanced view of musical history - it has come to include all things of a certain quality. Not only "greatness" or "depth" - yes, they are very loaded terms - but also lightness, elegance, grace, charm and craftsmanship. Of course, these two things aren't mutually exclusive. I'm kind of simplifying things here.

As I've said 100 times before above, I admire Andre's professionalism, passion for music and craftsmanship just as I admire that of other musicians who've basically stayed in the "serious" realm. He is a trained classical musician who has worked as both a "serious" orchestral and chamber musician for two decades, before going on to set up his own ensembles to play his own arrangements of many types of light music, from the classical realm, to movie themes, show tunes, and even some rare and neglected repertoire in these areas which he has unearthed and recorded for the first time since the 1940's. He has the greatest respect of a number of big names in the classical music industry, and he also respects them back.

As to accusations to Rieu "selling out" - what a joke. A lot of classical musicians crossed over to the lighter side of things - were they sell-outs too? Sir Yehudi Menuhin played the same repertoire as Rieu in a couple of albums with jazz violinist Stephane Grapelli. The three tenors - Domingo, Carreras, Pavorotti - sung a lot of lighter music in their now legendary concerts together. I even remember Pavorotti cutting a few albums with rock musicians. Snobbism and elitism is a thing that holds great artists back, whatever genre they are in. The great jazz pianist Art Tatum actually scored some of his "improvisations" and arrangements of non-jazz things, but they never saw the light of day until the great classical pianist of our times, Marc Andre Hamelin, recorded them and performed them live for the first time many decades after Tatum's passing. Hamelin has commented that these works by Tatum are as advanced and imaginative as those of any other classical composer during Tatum's time. Tatum actually did record them, but under a false name. He was worried of criticism of bigwigs in the jazz world, who would give him grief if they knew that he was stepping outside of the then strictly defined jazz "box." The same thing happened to Stravinsky. When he crossed over into the neo-classical style, he got a lot of crap from the Modernists and avant-gardists all sitting on their hobby horses. Then these people, who said he had "sold out," turned around and hailed him as a genius when he got into serialism later on in his career. This said more about these critics preferences and biases and very little about the actual quality of Stravinsky's music, whether it was in the Neo-classical or serial styles.

I could go on and on with many more examples, but I don't have the time. Basically we shouldn't stereotype musicians and put them in boxes. We should judge them on the merits of what they do. Andre Rieu has done some interesting things in his own realm, the area of light classical, as have the many "serious" classical musicians that we all appreciate...

Ok lecture over, I think I'll go and try to "get a life"... 

[karlhenning]

I'll repeat this again, although you'll probably refute my facts with another side issue or not very strong counter argument. Rieu has been playing since he was 6 & has a degree in music. He was encouraged to go on to become a professional musician by the likes of Franz Bruggen. Rieu played as an orchestral & chamber musician in many ensembles in the Netherlands for 20 years. He has a solid grounding in "serious" classical music. He founded his own quintet playing light salon music & then went on to set up his own orchestra (at the age of 40). His arrangements have been admired by the likes of Riccardo Chailly.

Rieu certainly has musical talent, which he has cultivated responsibly.  Even if one largely disagree with the use to which he has put his talents.

[karlhenning]

Still haven't heard Rieu, but... the idea that music which doesn't send one into deep thought is not worth hearing is one of the most pernicious and persistent Romantic myths. "Deep thought" is not the only human reality; "deep feeling", "deep joy", "deep enjoyment" and good ol' "deep fun" are also human.

Excellent point, and one which bears repeating.

[Mn Dave]

Excellent point, and one which bears repeating.

Indeed.

[DavidW]

I'll third that, good post Florestan.  I also thought it was amusing that MI brought up the DSCH concerto because it made me think... there are serious musicians that would never perform that work because they don't specialize in that era.  Take the ones that stick to baroque era, or perhaps dabble in classical era.  They might never conductor or perform a Shostakovich work... but are still serious.  I suppose if you specialize in divertimenti like Rieu does, you might not play that work either but if you do nothing but practice and perform music, you are still a serious musician.  Whatever you play.

[Florestan]

I think I agree with you there 110 per cent.

Excellent point, and one which bears repeating.

Indeed.

I'll third that, good post Florestan. 

(blushing) 

I also thought it was amusing that MI brought up the DSCH concerto because it made me think... there are serious musicians that would never perform that work because they don't specialize in that era.  Take the ones that stick to baroque era, or perhaps dabble in classical era.  They might never conductor or perform a Shostakovich work... but are still serious.  I suppose if you specialize in divertimenti like Rieu does, you might not play that work either but if you do nothing but practice and perform music, you are still a serious musician.  Whatever you play.

That's a point worth stressing as well.

Not only "greatness" or "depth" - yes, they are very loaded terms - but also lightness, elegance, grace, charm and craftsmanship. Of course, these two things aren't mutually exclusive. I'm kind of simplifying things here.

Actually, I'm very suspicious of music which is purposefully made for "deep thought" --- because oftenly I found the border between "deep thought" and "deep sleep" to be very thin. 

Interestingly enough, Schopenhauer, whose middle name was "deep thought", rejected Wagner (dismissing the Ring libretto exactly by thinking deeply about it  ) and sang the praises of Mozart and Rossini. 

[Florestan]

Now, TBH, this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX1fiE0U1qA

is a perfect illustration of that socialist realism which Shostakovich mocked so brilliantly.

It reminded me of the old Soviet movie "Everybody laughs, sings and dances" and I'm sure the Central Committee of the USSR Communist Party would have been only too happy to hear the waltz performed like that for some Stakhanov-like, five-year-plan-achieved-in four-and-a-half, working class party in the factory's ballroom. 

[Scarpia]

It occurs to me the Willi Boskovsky made a career of conducting and performing all manner of Viennese bon-bons but that didn't prevent him from performing all of the most "deep" music as the principal violinist of the Vienna Philharmonic.

[Scarpia]

I hope you don't consider his recordings of Johann Strauss II "Viennese bon-bons".

I do, I'm afraid. 

[eyeresist]

I hope you don't consider his recordings of Johann Strauss II "Viennese bon-bons".

Have you ever had a good bon-bon?

[Sid]

Rieu certainly has musical talent, which he has cultivated responsibly.  Even if one largely disagree with the use to which he has put his talents.

You kind of hit the nail on the head right there. In his biography, Rieu describes how towards the end of his 20 years as a "serious" classical musician, he wasn't enjoying working in the mainstream classical realm as he did when he was young. My feeling is that he wanted a changed, he wanted to be doing something that he enjoyed more. He had previously set up his light salon music quintet, and he said he was enjoying this "side job" more than his "day job" in the Netherlands classical orchestras. So at 40, he took the plunge and invested all of his time and effort into setting up his own orchestra. At first it was very hard, they had to do things like hire a school hall at peppercorn rental for them to rehearse in. It had no internal heating, so they had to use small portable heaters. These conditions were'nt conduicive to rehearse in for hours at a time. A few of the musicians left because of these conditions, but most in the orchestra stayed on. Rieu and the others were dedicated to making this risk actually pay off in as many ways as possible, they wanted it to be a success. I think Rieu is just like any other musician, who are all very emotional people. He wanted to be happy & enjoy what he was doing. That is most people's aim in life, so why blame him for doing that, just like anyone else?

[starrynight]

There's quite a long tradition of light classical music, if an audience out there enjoys his music then I think that is all that ultimately matters.  Those who don't will just listen to something else.  I know my mother likes his music.

[karlhenning]

. . . if an audience out there enjoys his music then I think that is all that ultimately matters.

That's what Lady Ga-Ga's manager sez! ; )

[Scarpia]

I don't know, people whose mode of contact with music is sitting around running the iPod expressing utter contempt for someone who hires and orchestra and plays Strauss Waltzes in sacrilegious non-authentic arrangements.  That doesn't sit right with me.  Should we have more respect for the guy if he gave up playing and sat around listening to recordings of Schoenberg?  Maybe he is listening to Schoenberg backstage before the gig.   0:)

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Actually, I'm very suspicious of music which is purposefully made for "deep thought" --- because oftenly I found the border between "deep thought" and "deep sleep" to be very thin. 

Very often it's about deep problems with the piece of music, deep disagreement in musical understanding, ...
I'd keep calm in case of a phenomen like Rieu. It's a bit annoying he makes people think DSCH is light Waltz composer; but hey, I wouldn't blame him.
A bit worse is the effect that people tend to think classical music (the "serious" one, the bigger arrangements etc.) must be difficult and strange. They do not see it's just music. With different instruments than they're used to, but does that really count? Maybe requires repeated listenings because of complexity, but does that count? Often good and enjoyable music from experts and: rewarding in whatever ways, that's what it has to be.
I my sports club there's a former (good one!) violinist - always busy in inventing new businesses. Next project is making disco music, he already found a female singer ("she's hot"), with one only goal: Earning money. He said "Why not, it's just business"

There are probably millions of poor serious classical musicians out there, some who cannot even afford a razor       - maybe artists in general. I think it's not easy to earn money in that arts domain...

[eyeresist]

It's a bit annoying he makes people think DSCH is light Waltz composer;

Could be worse. Classical Destinations said Vaughan Williams compiled a hymn book and wrote a couple of movie soundtracks.

No, actually that's not worse, is it?

[Sid]

Could be worse. Classical Destinations said Vaughan Williams compiled a hymn book and wrote a couple of movie soundtracks.

No, actually that's not worse, is it?

I own & have watched both the Classical Destinations televison series & I think they are excellent. Presenter Simon Callow is no slouch when it comes to classical music, he even co-wrote some of the script. Of course, this is not a scholarly text, it is a television show. If it was more scholarly, it could end up coming across to many people as being kind of dry and boring, so I think they were right to kind of narrow down the biographies of the composers covered to the bare essentials (as well as expertly filming where they lived, worked and hung out). If people new to classical watch this, it might light a spark in them to go out and explore more. A couple of multi compact disc sets were also issued along with the dvd's, and all of the repertoire (& some bonus things) were covered on these, with playing by expert musicians of the calibre of the Australian Chamber Orchestra and others who appeared on the TV show.

All in all, this series had it's pluses and minuses, but overall I think that the positives outweighted the negatives by a very wide margin. The aim is not to present classical music as a kind of museum piece away from the "great unwashed" in the rarified worlds of museums and archives only accessible to scholars. The aim, I think, is to present them as "real" people, as the emotional and passionate men they were. Classical music is a living medium just like all types of music today, it's not something that belongs in a museum or tucked away in an old granny's basement...

[Mirror Image]

I own & have watched both the Classical Destinations televison series & I think they are excellent. Presenter Simon Callow is no slouch when it comes to classical music, he even co-wrote some of the script. Of course, this is not a scholarly text, it is a television show. If it was more scholarly, it could end up coming across to many people as being kind of dry and boring, so I think they were right to kind of narrow down the biographies of the composers covered to the bare essentials (as well as expertly filming where they lived, worked and hung out). If people new to classical watch this, it might light a spark in them to go out and explore more. A couple of multi compact disc sets were also issued along with the dvd's, and all of the repertoire (& some bonus things) were covered on these, with playing by expert musicians of the calibre of the Australian Chamber Orchestra and others who appeared on the TV show.

All in all, this series had it's pluses and minuses, but overall I think that the positives outweighted the negatives by a very wide margin. The aim is not to present classical music as a kind of museum piece away from the "great unwashed" in the rarified worlds of museums and archives only accessible to scholars. The aim, I think, is to present them as "real" people, as the emotional and passionate men they were. Classical music is a living medium just like all types of music today, it's not something that belongs in a museum or tucked away in an old granny's basement...

I really enjoyed the Classical Destinations series. It was you that introduced me to this series, Andre on the other forum. I think the visual aspect of this program is wonderful as it takes you to the composer's birthplace and explores what was around them. A composer's environment may not seem like that big of a deal, but it actually is, as many of these cityscapes, rivers, lakes, mountains, cathedrals, etc. have inspired some of this music's greatest composers.

I haven't seen the second series yet and I don't even know if it's out yet, do you know anything about this Andre?