Yet another ignorant question - Keys

[Palmetto]

I think most listeners will be able to say it starts out minor and then maybe changes to major and so on.

Maybe with time.  Right now I'm not recognizing key changes as such.  I can differentiate one note from another, but not that a given passage contains a different set of notes from those used before, especially where there is significant overlap of notes between the differing keys / scales or when passages contains a large percentage of notes from outside their keys.

Perhaps I should try music with fewer or even single instruments (sonatas?).  I had difficulty with IBS's Mozart offering when trying to hear the individual notes he referenced.  Maybe if there are only a couple of instruments I more easily tell what changes.  Hell, maybe I should be listening to MIDI files after all.

[jochanaan]

...Perhaps I should try music with fewer or even single instruments (sonatas?).  I had difficulty with IBS's Mozart offering when trying to hear the individual notes he referenced.  Maybe if there are only a couple of instruments I more easily tell what changes.  Hell, maybe I should be listening to MIDI files after all.

No, generally orchestral music is no more harmonically complex than solo or chamber music--at least, not till Wagner's time.

I am glad you want to understand how music works!  However, without a certain amount of hands-on training, much of what we say may not make sense.  Therefore, I concur with others who recommend getting a guitar or an inexpensive keyboard.  Not necessarily to play at performance level--that takes years of focused study!--but just to feel what we mean when we say "The music changes key here" or "This piece gravitates toward this note/chord."  Right now you've got only your ears to guide you, but when you have an instrument and written music, you have three ways of knowing and learning: your ears, your hands as they feel the keys, and your eyes as they read what's written.  Once you have gotten used to how those three things work together, there may well come a click and you'll suddenly know/feel "Oh!  THAT's what they all mean!"  And often these clicks come without warning.  I well remember how, when learning new instruments, I would be frustrated with my seeming inability to master the most basic things, then suddenly one day everything became simple and easy.

It may be possible to get to this click without an instrument, but music is a very physical activity as well as a mental and spiritual one.  If you prefer to continue with the "non-instrumental" approach, one thing you might try is to let yourself move to the music, not dancing necessarily, but just letting your hand, or your foot, or your head, bob in time as you listen to the chords move.  Then, perhaps, one day you'll be doing this and suddenly get where the key is and where it's going.

And let me say again: Learning more about music has never reduced my enjoyment of it, not in any aspect.  Quite the opposite!  The more I know about the great masters' compositions, the more they fascinate me.

[Palmetto]

I am glad you want to understand how music works!

Ah, but that's not what I want.  What I want is entertainment.  Knowing how it works appears to be the price of admission.  It's becoming a question of whether the price (in terms of time that could be spent on other recreational activities) is too high.

I was given a harmonica about decade ago.  It lasted maybe two weeks.

[karlhenning]

I was given a harmonica about decade ago.  It lasted maybe two weeks.

There, you see? That was very musical of you!

[DavidW]

I don't think that is true, really.  I am of the belief that one can enjoy Classical music without knowing much, if anything, about music, or keys, or theory.  Let the music enter your mind without any preconceptions or expectations, and you would be a unique individual if you did not find something you thought enjoyable to listen to.

QFT  Understanding the nuts and bolts deepens appreciation, but is not necessary for appreciation.  I don't think the past masters expected their music to be analyzed for enjoyed, rather I expect that people would find pleasure in listening to or performing the music.

[Scarpia]

I don't think the past masters expected their music to be analyzed for enjoyed, rather I expect that people would find pleasure in listening to or performing the music.

Now that depends.  Most of Bach's published music seems to have been intended for private study by music lovers.  But certainly orchestral music was intended mainly to sweep the audience away, rather than leave them pondering the ingeniousness of this or that modulation.

[Grazioso]

Ah, but that's not what I want.  What I want is entertainment.  Knowing how it works appears to be the price of admission.  It's becoming a question of whether the price (in terms of time that could be spent on other recreational activities) is too high.

Learning how it works is entertaining  But do you need to understand lighting or editing to enjoy a film? Stage direction to appreciate a play? Color mixing to enjoy a painting? I've never touched an Avid system, but I can still have fun at the movies

Same with music: learning the how-and-why can add much to the experience, but it's certainly not necessary. Yes, classical music tends to be more complex than a lot of pop music, but that doesn't mean you have to have a PhD in music theory to enjoy it. Like all things in life, though, dedicated study can illuminate subtleties one might otherwise miss.

I was given a harmonica about decade ago.  It lasted maybe two weeks.

Harmonica is actually more challenging than its iffy reputation would suggest:) Good embouchure, breathing, and tone production are all fiddly. In the hands/mouth of someone really skilled (John Popper, Little Walter, Stevie Wonder, Toots Thielemans, etc.), it's pretty damn impressive.

That's why I think for a beginner's melody instrument, a tin whistle is better: simple fingering and easy tone production as long as you have the ability to blow hard for higher notes. Maybe a recorder, but good production of the lowest notes can be a bit tricky, and you're dealing with a true chromatic instrument, which complicates things more than a diatonic (i.e., in one key) instrument: the fingering is more complex.

[karlhenning]

The tin whistle could have redeemd even Bob Dylan ; )

[Grazioso]

The tin whistle could have redeemd even Bob Dylan ; )

I'd rather listen to a badly played harmonica than Bob Dylan's hideous voice 

[karlhenning]

I just think of it as an unusually well-modulated saxophone ; )

[Palmetto]

I'd rather listen to a badly played harmonica than Bob Dylan's hideous voice 

Funny, my wife and I were talking about Dylan last night, in context with what I'm trying to do here.  I said I work on a sliding scale between interesting lyrics and a great voice; the better I perceive one component to be, the more I can tolerate weakness in the other.  (Most country music is an exception; there's no way I can accept some of those lyrics, no matter who sings them or how beautifully.)  I love Dylan's lyrics, but even I'll admit you've got to look them up to know what he's saying.

Here's a link to 'Weird Al' Yankovic channeling Dylan in a selection appropriately named 'Bob', all in palindromes, and including a harmonica solo.  (Al to me is another case where the strength of the lyrics excuse his relatively weak voice.  I wonder if this is the first time he's been posted here?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nej4xJe4Tdg

[karlhenning]

Yes, I've seen that, it's a blast!

[Grazioso]

Funny, my wife and I were talking about Dylan last night, in context with what I'm trying to do here.  I said I work on a sliding scale between interesting lyrics and a great voice; the better I perceive one component to be, the more I can tolerate weakness in the other.  (Most country music is an exception; there's no way I can accept some of those lyrics, no matter who sings them or how beautifully.)  I love Dylan's lyrics, but even I'll admit you've got to look them up to know what he's saying.

Here's a link to 'Weird Al' Yankovic channeling Dylan in a selection appropriately named 'Bob', all in palindromes, and including a harmonica solo.  (Al to me is another case where the strength of the lyrics excuse his relatively weak voice.  I wonder if this is the first time he's been posted here?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nej4xJe4Tdg

Lisa Bonet ain't no Basil  You gotta love Weird Al.

Dylan was at least tolerable sounding in his early years (and of course wrote some classic tunes), but now, good heavens:

http://www.youtube.com/v/cJpB_AEZf6U

A perfect example of what key is and how to sing outside of it 

[karlhenning]

Hey, don't you try givin' atonal honking a bad name! ; )

[Grazioso]

Hey, don't you try givin' atonal honking a bad name! ; )

It's folk music all right: music for deaf folks 

[DavidW]

That's it!!  I'm listening to Highway 61 revisited as resentment listening!

[karlhenning]

Hah!

[jochanaan]

Hey, don't you try givin' atonal honking a bad name! ; )

That's "Honkin' in the Wind"!

[Palmetto]

That's it!!  I'm listening to Highway 61 revisited as resentment listening!

Better you than me.  Talk about taking one for the team...

[eyeresist]

One of my concerns from early in my exploration was that my complete lack of 'hands on' experience was going hamper my investigation of this music.  (Not just classical, I guess; I would be having the same questions with any genre I chose to look at in depth.)  Since no one had made your suggestion before now, I was beginning to think maybe it wasn't going to be a handicap after all.

I started investigating classical music as a potential source of future life-long entertainment.   If I'd wanted to learn to play an instrument, I would have taken that up instead.  If the ability to play an instrument is a prerequisite, I'm wasting my time and that of everyone else.

No, luckily for you I was not suggesting that you "learn" an instrument, just that seeing and feeling how the notes relate to each other in a physical form might be useful.

There must be some browser-based virtual keyboards you can look at online. Using that, just pick out some notes, so you can "see" what a chord looks like. Pick out a tune you know. If the keys are labelled, even better; that way, the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc won't just be abstract ideas you are trying to get your head around. They'll be right there lined up in front of you for you to see.

Please don't get a tin whistle, for the sake of my ears.