GMG Listening Group - Schubert's String Quintet in C major - June 22-28, 2011

[Brahmsian]

If this work is indeed considered one of the greatest chamber music pieces ever written, why are there so many people who don't "like it" or appreciate it?  It seems to not really be appreciated by many.  It is only considered great on a "critic level" or "musicological level".

Well, I'm one of those musical peons who actually agree with the critic's choice on this one.  It may not win the "People's Choice Award", but may come home in the end with the Oscar.   

[DavidW]

Well actually Ray it's very popular!  Gets lots of radio play and it is #1 on the Talk Classical Top 50 String Ensembles!!

http://www.talkclassical.com/13221-talk-classical-top-50-a.html

You know we totally need to do our own top 50 sometime.

[Brahmsian]

Well actually Ray it's very popular!  Gets lots of radio play and it is #1 on the Talk Classical Top 50 String Ensembles!!

http://www.talkclassical.com/13221-talk-classical-top-50-a.html

You know we totally need to do our own top 50 sometime.

When I first got into classical music, and tuned into the Hartford station called Beethoven Radio, they did not even have this work in their library.  Yet, you could hear Gershwin's Cuban Overture on an almost daily basis, or Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite.   

[karlhenning]

. . . Yet, you could hear Gershwin's Cuban Overture on an almost daily basis, or Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite.

That is so utterly, mind-bendingly wrong!

[Brahmsian]

I think the 3rd movement Scherzo.  Presto - Trio.  Andante sostenuto has got to be one of the greatest Scherzos ever written, be it chamber or orchestral.

[Brahmsian]

That is so utterly, mind-bendingly wrong!

Every time I asked them to play the Schubert String Quintet in C, they would ask me "Oh, you mean the Trout Quintet, right?"  I would say 'NO'.  Then they would say, well we have this other quintet of Schubert's.  I figured that must be the one.  But no, it's this really obscure quintet a very young Schubert wrote for flute, harp or horn, shoebox and washboard.  Well, something like that.  It's an 'oddity', and not a particularly well known piece.  Me thinks, anyways. 

[zamyrabyrd]

When I first got into classical music, and tuned into the Hartford station called Beethoven Radio, they did not even have this work in their library.  Yet, you could hear Gershwin's Cuban Overture on an almost daily basis, or Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite.   

Ha, ha, back in my hometown it was the "Pines of Rome" by Respighi all the time played by the Philadelphia Orchestra. The local radio station here got hooked on the Arlesienne Suite by Bizet and also the 6th Symphony by Beethoven. I usually tuned in the middle of that while driving.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

(http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/schubjn.htm).  This seems to me to be starting to build a body of evidence... supporting... well here are two questions:

(1) objectively is this piece romantic or classical?
(2) subjectively do you feel this piece is romantic or classical?  In answering this question, please explain what romanticism and/or classical means to you.

To answer the question about Romanticism, well, Schubert for me is early Romantic. But this piece for me looks forward to Mahler. I saw there was a reference in your quoted article and this is exactly what I was thinking but didn't dare say it. The article gave me some confidence that I was not too eccentric.

There's a kind of innocence about the Romantics right on the cusp like Schubert and Mendelssohn. They use the forms of classicism like sonatas and symphonies in a conventional manner but with individual content.

ZB

[jochanaan]

Oooh, one of my favorite pieces, chamber or otherwise!

Zamyrabyrd, I've always loved that this piece has two cellos.  On one hand, there's the added richness in sound; and also, Schubert takes great advantage of the cello's extraordinarily wide range.  Example: the second sentence in the theme, where one cello plays the melody, high; the other cello plays the bass, low; and the violins and viola play between them. Now if I could just find some recordings of George Onslow's chamber music; he does sound like a neglected master!

DavidW: definitely romantic!  Of course, Gurn would probably say here that it doesn't matter, since it's all one anyway.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oooh, one of my favorite pieces, chamber or otherwise!

Zamyrabyrd, I've always loved that this piece has two cellos.  On one hand, there's the added richness in sound; and also, Schubert takes great advantage of the cello's extraordinarily wide range.  Example: the second sentence in the theme, where one cello plays the melody, high; the other cello plays the bass, low; and the violins and viola play between them. Now if I could just find some recordings of George Onslow's chamber music; he does sound like a neglected master!

DavidW: definitely romantic!  Of course, Gurn would probably say here that it doesn't matter, since it's all one anyway.

It is part of that great continuous spectrum of Classico-Romantic music.

[DavidW]

Yeah Jo I feel inspired to listen to some Onslow too... it's been awhile!

[karlhenning]

It is part of that great continuous spectrum of Classico-Romantic music.

(* chortle *)

[Marc]

If this work is indeed considered one of the greatest chamber music pieces ever written, why are there so many people who don't "like it" or appreciate it?  It seems to not really be appreciated by many.  It is only considered great on a "critic level" or "musicological level".

This is new to me.
Anyway: if all repeats are respected, maybe some people find it too long.
Dunno.

IMHO, this work is one of those examples that make Grillparzer's epitaph valid: The art of music here entombed a rich possession, but even far fairer hopes.

[Holden]

I only have two recordings to listen to. My first purchase was on Naxos with the Ensemble Villa Musica which is quite a good rendition. Then I got the Hollywood SQ version on Testament and I haven't bothered to look for any further recordings after hearing it.

[DavidW]

Well looks like everyone but Gurn (who has a wider view of things ) hears romanticism... cool. 

Hey I'm not really familiar with Schubert's biography but apparently he wrote this in 1828 just a couple of months died.  Was he already gravely ill at the time?  What was his life like back then in those final months?  It's sad that the quintet was passed over publication because his reputation was almost solely made on lieder.  If anyone can fill in the gaps on what things were like for Franz back in summer of 1828 that would be cool.

And this brings me to another question: well is your reception, or interpretation of a work influenced by biographical details of the composer?  And in particular, do you hear any part of Schubert's life in this string quintet?  Or is it abstract music to you?  Or do you hear your own life in this music?

For me, it is in abstract work.  But I always feel like there is a touch of tragedy in Schubert's late works, including this one.

[Brahmsian]

  Or do you hear your own life in this music?

For me, it is in abstract work.  But I always feel like there is a touch of tragedy in Schubert's late works, including this one.

For me, especially in the inner movements, I feel some of Schubert's inner struggles, his unhappiness, sickness (perhaps).  The Andante Sustenuto Trio portion of the Scherzo almost never fails to make my eyes well up, and my heart feel like it is moving up into my throat.

Of course, this is just how the music makes me react and feel.

[Gurn Blanston]

I was going to type out a long reply to this question, but I checked Wiki looking for a letter I wanted to quote (without typing it) and found the bio article on him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Schubert

This is very good reading and answers a lot of questions. Still doesn't quote that letter to his brother though, I may have to type it out. But note that by the time of the composition of the quintet, he was fully apprised that he was incurable, and it DID affect his music. You really hear it in the Lieder, especially works like Schwanengesang, but I think it shows in the instrumental works too.

To me, the quintet is not a preponderantly light or dark work, it has strong elements of both. Some of it is joyous, in fact. Still, it is colored (more by us, who know the outcome) by the sadness of his impending death.



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Now playing:
Tafelmisik / Lamon Bylsma - Hob 07b 2 Concerto in D for Cello 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

[DavidW]

Oh if you can dig up that letter, that would be most interesting.

[zamyrabyrd]

If this work is indeed considered one of the greatest chamber music pieces ever written, why are there so many people who don't "like it" or appreciate it?  It seems to not really be appreciated by many.  It is only considered great on a "critic level" or "musicological level".

Well, I'm one of those musical peons who actually agree with the critic's choice on this one.  It may not win the "People's Choice Award", but may come home in the end with the Oscar.   

There's something to what you are saying. I really didn't "get it" until I heard and internatlized quite a bit Schubert's music - his songs, symphonies, chamber music, played his sonatas, etc.

I have the CD of Yo-Yo Ma and the Cleveland Quartet, very nice...

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

I don't want to hijack this thread with George Louis Onslow but it's interesting and informative to compare a most probable influence on Schubert. His string quintet, composed in 1829, is called the "Bullet".

Without first reading the commentary, I felt the music looked forward to Borodin with its long, luxurious lines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ARqkiKFUAg

As in the Beethoven 6th Symphony, I prefer to hear the music without programmatic interferences. But the composer titled the 2nd movement as dolor and fever, that he certainly must have suffered when wounded in the head in a hunting accident that year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1juoZFiThg&NR=1

A possible reference to Beethoven's thanksgiving for recovery in his own string quartet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfZC0FVIwT0&NR=1

The recuperation is now complete and in a happy vein, also reminiscent of Beethoven's Les Adieux Sonata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnhlrfbi3eI

Maybe Onslow deserves his own thread. And he also wrote four hand piano music - want to check that out.

ZB