Top10 Cliches of the Avant-Garde

Started by snyprrr, July 10, 2011, 12:29:47 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Print
Go Down Pages 1 2 3
User actions

Lethevich

#40
July 12, 2011, 06:06:28 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 12, 2011, 06:03:26 PM
The only cliche that comes to my mind about the Avant-Garde is that it is difficult to understand and enjoy.

It wouldn't be doing its job very well if it were easy to understand, surely? :)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Mirror Image

#41
July 12, 2011, 06:06:42 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 12, 2011, 06:03:26 PM
The only cliche that comes to my mind about the Avant-Garde is that it is difficult to understand and enjoy.

There are many avant-garde composers I don't enjoy like Xenakis and Stockhausen, but I'm really keen to Ligeti. I think he's coming from a completely different place entirely with more reverence to tonal music and his music, for the most part, is accessible even to someone who generally doesn't enjoy this kind of music.

some guy

#42
July 12, 2011, 06:44:39 PM
One, the Helicopter Quartet is a one-off, so can hardly be considered a cliche.

Two, there really is no single "avant garde," no cohesive, coherent movement that has identifiable characteristics.

Three, the various musics of the avant gardes are all enjoyable and understandable. Maybe not all equally enjoyable by every listener, but neither are Brahms and Mozart, to take two of countless examples. (Here's a list of composers I personally have had to work at to enjoy in my fifty years of listening: J.S. Bach, Hector Berlioz, Gustav Mahler, Jean Sibelius, Serge Prokofiev, Elliott Carter, Robert Ashley, Giacinto Scelsi. That means that Vivaldi and Beethoven and Bruckner and Ives and Schoenberg and Varese and Cage and Mumma (nor any other of "the avant garde" except for Berio's Visage) were not people I had to work to enjoy. Why some and not others? Who knows?)

[While I was typing this, Leon's fine response showed up. We are agreed.]

snyprrr

#43
July 12, 2011, 08:04:54 PM
Quote from: some guy on July 12, 2011, 06:44:39 PM
One, the Helicopter Quartet is a one-off, so can hardly be considered a cliche.

Two, there really is no single "avant garde," no cohesive, coherent movement that has identifiable characteristics.

Three, the various musics of the avant gardes are all enjoyable and understandable. Maybe not all equally enjoyable by every listener, but neither are Brahms and Mozart, to take two of countless examples. (Here's a list of composers I personally have had to work at to enjoy in my fifty years of listening: J.S. Bach, Hector Berlioz, Gustav Mahler, Jean Sibelius, Serge Prokofiev, Elliott Carter, Robert Ashley, Giacinto Scelsi. That means that Vivaldi and Beethoven and Bruckner and Ives and Schoenberg and Varese and Cage and Mumma (nor any other of "the avant garde" except for Berio's Visage) were not people I had to work to enjoy. Why some and not others? Who knows?)

[While I was typing this, Leon's fine response showed up. We are agreed.]

10) someguy VS James :P


I'm sorry, I think your being serious here! ;) You're going to tell me you've never rolled your someguy's eyes at anything ever? No,... don't tell me,... don't tell me you're not down with makin' fun of the vibraphone?!?! :o ;D Hey, I have a soft spot for cheese, but I don't call it steak! :-*

What about that Asian guy who had a cd on Tzadic that was just a scratched up cd?,... oh, I can already tell that's going to be a bad example with you, haha!! But seriously, you've probably got a million of 'em,... lay us down some cliches, m'man!! ;) Just because it's a cliche doesn't mean it's not true!!


Here's one: making that 'bed creaking' noise on the strings.

Oh, and here's one of my pet peeves: String Quartets,... with a triangle,... or one cymbal,... or "ein,..zwei,...drei"...

Lethevich

#44
July 12, 2011, 08:12:49 PM
Gotta have them grim sounding single-movements with German titles beginning and ending in ellipses.

...dieses ist sehr Sinnvoll...
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

some guy

#45
July 12, 2011, 08:27:20 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 12, 2011, 08:04:54 PMYou're going to tell me you've never rolled your someguy's eyes at anything ever?
No, I'm not going to tell you that! ::)

Quote from: snyprrr on July 12, 2011, 08:04:54 PM[D]on't tell me you're not down with makin' fun of the vibraphone?!?! :o ;D
I'm down with that, bro.

Quote from: snyprrr on July 12, 2011, 08:04:54 PMWhat about that Asian guy who had a cd on Tzadic that was just a scratched up cd?,... oh, I can already tell that's going to be a bad example with you, haha!!
Yasunao Tone? Sure, I got that. (I like the CD he used for that better, though.)

Quote from: snyprrr on July 12, 2011, 08:04:54 PMString Quartets,... with a triangle,... or one cymbal,... or "ein,..zwei,...drei"...
...DREIZEHN!!!! :o

Coco

#46
July 12, 2011, 08:50:02 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 12, 2011, 08:12:49 PM
Gotta have them grim sounding single-movements with German titles beginning and ending in ellipses.

...dieses ist sehr Sinnvoll...

...nach Friedrich Hölderlin...

...natürlich...

snyprrr

#47
July 13, 2011, 06:22:53 AM
Quote from: Coco on July 12, 2011, 08:50:02 PM
...nach Friedrich Hölderlin...

...natürlich...

mmm,...good one!! Haha, this gets better and better!!

Does anyone have a video clip of a Composer being...mm,... well,... pretentious?

Grazioso

#48
July 13, 2011, 08:39:08 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 12, 2011, 08:04:54 PM
don't tell me you're not down with makin' fun of the vibraphone?!?!

Bobby Hutcherson is going to smack you with four mallets.

There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

some guy

#49
July 13, 2011, 09:15:16 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 13, 2011, 06:22:53 AMDoes anyone have a video clip of a Composer being...mm,... well,... pretentious?
snyprrr, surely you know that there was no video in Wagner's day. You did know that, didn't you?

zamyrabyrd

#50
July 13, 2011, 09:25:03 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 10, 2011, 12:29:47 PM
4) piano sounding like a cat walking on the keys

That would be insulting to Nora the cat - exactly what she doesn't do. She really does play with her front paws, in graceful, continuous motions - a talented feline!!!

ZB
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

zamyrabyrd

#51
July 13, 2011, 09:33:59 AM
Come to think of it, the phrase "avant-garde" is quite a cliche.

ZB
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

jochanaan

#52
July 13, 2011, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 12, 2011, 06:03:26 PM
The only cliche that comes to my mind about the Avant-Garde is that it is difficult to understand and enjoy.
That's not a cliché, that's a stereotype. :)
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on July 13, 2011, 09:33:59 AM
Come to think of it, the phrase "avant-garde" is quite a cliche.
Indeed. ;)

What "avant-garde" music does to me is to make me "stand up and use my ears like a man." (All credit to Charles Ives. :D)

Shall we now discuss the clichés of Traditional Music?  Woodwinds in pairs, 4/4 time, minor pieces ending in the major, division into movements... ;D
Imagination + discipline = creativity

snyprrr

#53
July 13, 2011, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on July 13, 2011, 01:12:11 PM
That's not a cliché, that's a stereotype. :)Indeed. ;)

What "avant-garde" music does to me is to make me "stand up and use my ears like a man." (All credit to Charles Ives. :D)

Shall we now discuss the clichés of Traditional Music?  Woodwinds in pairs, 4/4 time, minor pieces ending in the major, division into movements... ;D

No,... the one I hate is the 'start-out- brooding-but-then-say-haha' Haydn thing! ;)

snyprrr

#54
July 13, 2011, 08:13:32 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on July 13, 2011, 01:12:11 PM
That's not a cliché, that's a stereotype. :)Indeed. ;)

What "avant-garde" music does to me is to make me "stand up and use my ears like a man." (All credit to Charles Ives. :D)

Shall we now discuss the clichés of Traditional Music?  Woodwinds in pairs, 4/4 time, minor pieces ending in the major, division into movements... ;D
I waaas going to start thaaat Thread, but thought better of it. I will just go on at length here about THAT thing in Classical Era Music that makes me want to gag: if the piece is in 'C;, then the thing that I'm talking about is when at the end of their phrases, they ALWAYS go 'B'...'C',... baaaah bah,... baaaah bah, ALWAYS B-C B-C B-C B-C,... AAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! :o :o :o

baaaah...bah


However,... when the ... ahem... Avant Garde does it, it's ironic! ;)


oh, here's a good AV cliche: having multiple pieces, with designations such as IIa, IVb,...

Well, I think the '60s need their own subgroup,...Cathy Berberian singing Ticket to Ride,... Swingle-Mania,...Scratch Orchestra playing Strauss,...

...ah, Vanilla Fudge,...

Coco

#55
July 14, 2011, 04:51:44 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 13, 2011, 08:13:32 PM
I waaas going to start thaaat Thread, but thought better of it.

clichés
Print
Go Up Pages 1 2 3
User actions