Tragedy in Norway

[knight66]

You are not selling the place to me you know.

Mike

[karlhenning]

Much depends on what is meant by a good percentage, I suppose.

[karlhenning]

I can't even imagine a cop without a gun . . .

Sure seems the horse is out the barn there, here in the US of A.

[The new erato]

Look at our murder statistics

2010: 29 victims, 1 case unsolved
2009: 31, 0 unsolved
2008: 33, 0 unsolved
2007: 33, 3 unsolved
2006: 36, 2 unsolved
2005: 29, 0 unsolved

This despite having an unarmed policed that will only be allowed to collect weapons on a case-by-case basis.

[knight66]

I have had a look to see how Scotland rates. There is a population not dissimilar in size to Norway. Here is a quote from government statistics.

'In 2009-10, there were 78 cases of homicide involving 79 victims. This represents a decrease of 20 victims from 2008-09 and is the lowest number recorded in the 10 year period covered by the bulletin. There were 118 persons accused of homicide in Scotland in 2009-10.

Over the last 10 years, the most common method of killing has consistently been with a sharp instrument. In 2009-10, around half of those accused of homicide were reported to have been drunk and/or under the influence of drugs at the time.'

Also interesting to see the most common method....having to get up close and personal and clearly unable to achieve mass killing where a gun is not available. We have had a couple of large scale gun killings; but I have no doubt there would be a whole lot more if there were a whole lot more guns around.

Mike

[prémont]

And in other countries, too.

I did not exclude this.

Maybe the same expectations, yes, but mr. Breivik is arrested (the Palme killer wasn't f.i.) and very willing to cooperate and speak. I'm curious: will he be allowed to speak freely in court and explain his reasons in the way he did on the internet? He might gain a lot of sympathy for his ideas .... even though many sympathizers will remain silent or will say that killing social-democrats is not the solution.

I do not think he will get much sympathy outside his own narrow circles. His crime is to horrible. Mass murder of children is not generally used by extremistic terrorists, because they know that acts like these naturally will deprive them of the sympathy they want to gain.

I hope you're right. But keep your fingers crossed whilst writing it down.

I will.

[eyeresist]

To the first point, it is at least potentially unreasonable to suppose that a terrorist attack in some remote part of the world with a very small Muslim population has been carried out by an Islamic group.  In the case of Norway your prejudicial thinking was clearly wrong.  Prejudicial thinking very easily can be.  Your defense of prejudicial thinking, with its pretension to reasonableness, simply highlights the problem.  It was Muslims before.  It's probably, or could be, or might be Muslims now.  Well, what if it's not?  Automatically assuming it's a specific group is a bit problematic, particularly when local conditions are not taken into account, and especially without knowing any facts.  It does indeed begin to represent an entire group as similar, and in this case violent.  You can try to sugar coat it by saying "Islamist", though that phrase itself is flawed and hides the fact that there are differences in motivation between groups, and the very word itself is a bit prejudicial in the more standard pejorative sense.  If you want to ignore that, go right ahead.

To the second point, I never stated that you hate Muslims.  I did ask whether you were a religious bigot and/or racist.  I suppose you can state that this amounts to the same thing, but it doesn't.  There are other groups and crazies out there who are eager to engage in violence, and some like the Norwegian nut job specifically want to foment more prejudice against Muslims.  Knee jerk responses like yours are part of what people like him want.

And yet you say you're not PC! Not PC, and yet if a person even momentarily considers the possiblity of Islamist involvement in a terrorist act, they have committed, according to you, a most horrendous thought-crime.

Here is my original post:

When I first heard about this, I thought "Oh, Islamists." Then I thought, "Oh, but maybe it was the Satanists." Turned out it was a Norwegian Tim McVeigh. Thanks, America!

Why didn't you take exception to my mention of Satanists? I'm pretty sure that Satanists experience a lot of day-to-day discrimination, and are unfairly regarded as bad people likely to commit crimes. Why won't you write long posts insisting I am a bad person because I considered, just for a second, that Satanists might have committed a terrorist act?

And what about my attribution of the killer's motives to American right-wing ideology? Don't you want to complain at length that I am stereotyping Americans and American culture, perpetuating stereotypes that overlook the ordinary decent character of most people in that country? How can you stand aside and allow such blatant bigotry?

[Marc]

I do not think he will get much sympathy outside his own narrow circles. His crime is to horrible. Mass murder of children is not generally used by extremistic terrorists, because they know that acts like these naturally will deprive them of the sympathy they want to gain.

I was referring to his ideas about culture and religion, not to his deeds.

In general: I think you might be surprised c.q. shocked by reading the program of the Dutch political party PVV (Geert Wilders et al) or watching his movie 'Fitna'. There are many comparisons with Breivik's statements. And this party is now the 2nd largest of our democratic and so-called tolerant country, and their ideas are in a way accepted by the liberals and the christian-democrats, because they needed this club to form a cabinet.

Mr. Wilders is also befriended with a certain Pamela Geller: the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.
She and her friends of the rather well-known neo-conservative David Horowitz Freedom Center (DHFC) believe their is a deal between lefties and Muslims which will destroy the reigning Western culture.

Of course these people and their followers detest the killing of young children. (Although maybe Geller might mourn the fact that they weren't Muslim children.) But at least they share a deep hatred agains the Islam and against socialism. You really don't want to know about the things that our Dutch 'hero' is saying in the parlement. And his followers can be found in all 'classes' of Dutch society, with all kinds of education, even academic. And this following is growing.

I think there are multiple reasons why the Norwegian judge denied Breivik another public stage yesterday ....

About myself: I'm worried. In this part of the world there are only small problems to complain about, compared to many other regions. Yet there is so much hatred around here.
Like you, I keep my fingers crossed.

[MDL]

I did not exclude this.

Mass murder of children is not generally used by extremistic terrorists, because they know that acts like these naturally will deprive them of the sympathy they want to gain.

There are plenty of Muslims who regard the murder of a few hundred children in Beslan as a great act of heroism.

[Marc]

Of course these people and their followers detest the killing of young children.

Too optimistic ....

I just read on the Dutch newssite nu.nl that, on the internet, PVV supporters already have shown their admiration for Breivik's operation.

Yes, we Dutch should be proud that we have such a party in our parlement!

[eyeresist]

I think the effect of Breivik's actions will be to work against his ideal. I imagine the European far right will be pretty pissed off, which is no bad thing, but unfortunately this tragedy may also have the effect of stifling open debate about the issues. There are plenty of moderate people trouble by immigration, ghettoisation and cultural drift who will suppress or change their opinions for fear of being associated with a mass murderer.

[The new erato]

I think the effect of Breivik's actions will be to work against his idea    l. I imagine the European far right will be pretty pissed off, which is no bad thing, but unfortunately this tragedy may also have the effect of stifling open debate about the issues. There are plenty of moderate people trouble by immigration, ghettoisation and cultural drift who will suppress or change their opinions for fear of being associated with a mass murderer.

Yes, I think this is a pretty fair asessment unfortunately (and fortunately in case of working against his goals).

[Marc]

So far, reactions on these deeds are sometimes too crazy for words.

Like the one of Søren Pind, Danish Minister for Immigration and Integration Affairs, who, at his Facebook page, compares the assaults with demonstrations against the demolition of a youth club and protests against the deportation of asylum seekers.

[Florestan]

Two questions for our good Norwegian resident erato.

1. According to some recent tv news, Breivik's lawyer claimed he was on drugs. If this shows to be true, is it possible for this guy that instead of prison he get state-sponsored rehab?

2. According to the same news, he might spend his term in one of Norway's most modern jails, located in the middle of a forest and featuring, besides cells furnished with plasma tv, frige and wardrobe, a gym, a jogging track and two rooms where the inmates can spend intimate time with their partners. Is it true that such a prison exist? What are his chances to get there?

TIA for answering.

[The new erato]

Two questions for our good Norwegian resident erato.

1. According to some recent tv news, Breivik's lawyer claimed he was on drugs. If this shows to be true, is it possible for this guy that instead of prison he get state-sponsored rehab?

2. According to the same news, he might spend   his term in one of Norway's most modern jails, located in the middle of a forest and featuring, besides cells furnished with plasma tv, frige and wardrobe, a gym, a jogging track and two rooms where the inmates can spend intimate time with their partners. Is it true that such a prison exist? What are his chances to get there?

TIA for answering.

1. He took steroids before the deed. Anyway; drugs don't work as an excuse i orus system, though in some cases they are mediating circumstances. And as he consciously took them to be able to perform the deed, no way they will be considere.

2. We have prisons like that. There is unlikely that he will end up in such a place, if only because his chances of getting killed by other inmates in such an open environment will be pretty high.

[snyprrr]

1. He took steroids before the deed. Anyway; drugs don't work as an excuse i orus system, though in some cases they are mediating circumstances. And as he consciously took them to be able to perform the deed, no way they will be considere.

2. We have prisons like that. There is unlikely that he will end up in such a place, if only because his chances of getting killed by other inmates in such an open environment will be pretty high.

I'm curious. There are ONLY 6 million people in the HUGE country of Norway? That boggles me.


I was reading some Posts elsewhere, and one Norwegian man did say that the Norwegian government is totally promoting this 'multiculturalism' thing, and, this particular guy was lamenting that (all) the indigenous Norwegian girls have decided that immigrant Africans and such make better mates, and, apparently, Norwegian men are left wondering what happened. My point is, is that 6 million people doesn't seem like all that much, so, it seems to me that a totally open immigration policy would, naturally, totally weakens indigenous Norwegian culture. Yes? No?


Also, have you all seen the pic of the Nor-PM at the island a day before, where the kids were holding a 'Divest from Israel' poster?

Also, doesn't the non-EU Norway have a whole bunch of oil and money that the bloodsucking banksters would like to get their grubby hands on?


Just to clarify, I don't believe pretty much anything I'm being told about this story. Have you SEEN the PhotoShopped pics of ABB in his SWAT gear? Also, the guy was a Masonic patsy,... so, yea, I do smell Mossad,... so shoot me. HOW??,... HOW did this 'lone' guy do ALL this?,... yea, I know, go ahead, call me names.

When EVERY incident like this is ALWAYS the work of a 'lone' gunman, well, sorry, it DOES begin to sound like bullshit. All you people who would be inclined to simply believe nevermind,... this one just doesn't add up, like all the others,... when the 'official' story comes out, will you believe it? I does appear that most everyone here tends to believe what the World Media tells them.

Surely I will regret Posting this.

[The new erato]

I was reading some Posts elsewhere, and one Norwegian man did say that the Norwegian government is totally promoting this 'multiculturalism' thing, and, this particular guy was lamenting that (all) the indigenous Norwegian girls have decided that immigrant Africans and such make better mates, and, apparently, Norwegian men are left wondering what happened. My point is, is that 6 million people doesn't seem like all that much, so, it seems to me that a totally open immigration policy would, naturally, totally weakens indigenous Norwegian culture. Yes? No?

No. Most of this is pure drivel. The terrorist had apparently never had a girlfriend, but that is hardly the fault of the immigrants. Seems that the poster you quote seem to be in the same position. It seems to be a fairly common trait of extremists that they blame everybody else for their own failures, and thus starts the idea of revenge on society.

[Sergeant Rock]

yea, I do smell Mossad,... so shoot me. HOW??,... HOW did this 'lone' guy do ALL this?,...When EVERY incident like this is ALWAYS the work of a 'lone' gunman, well, sorry, it DOES begin to sound like bullshit.

And yet, you are a lone crackpot! I'm beginning to smell bullshit too. I believe snyprrr has been planted here by Zionist agents to disrupt this forum. Come on, a loner named snyprrr (=sniper), a lone gunman sent to sow dissent and havoc! Isn't it obvious? I mean, come on, how can anyone believe snyprrr is really working alone. I smell Mossad!



Sarge

[The new erato]

A  nice piece of nookie would disarm most potential terrorists, as well as some of the weirder posters on this forum.

[Antoine Marchand]

I will not defend snyrrr's post (I am not a comediant or a conspiracy theorist), but some doubts arise from this story of a mad gunner acting alone. This man used very specialized equipment and needed money, dealers, transport and a lot of things to do what he did. Obviously this should be a central issue of the judicial investigation because, at first sight, it's difficult to believe that he acted alone.