Author Topic: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson and vocal techniques  (Read 16849 times)

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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2011, 06:03:14 AM »
Now here is a recording of hers where on this old hissy recording her voice sounds three dimensional and as though she is standing beside you. The first time I heard it I was really startled by the reality. On the remastering I have the hiss is hardly present.
Tell me what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHZhkvu1ojk

Mike

Wow! I just listened to it a few times, and still have a bona-fide chill. Thanks for the link.
It's funny but the hiss doesn't distract at all when the voice itself is so attention grabbing.
The ting of the glockenspiel manages to come through as well.
The alternations of major and minor are heartbreaking as in Schubert.
The business about vibration, well, there was one poster who objected to soprano warbling for that reason.
Where is the dividing line, if anywhere, between an expressive vibrato and a distracting one?
This could be a subject for discussion.

ZB
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2011, 06:19:24 AM »
I am glad you enjoyed it. It was like a bucket of cold water....in a good way....the first time I heard it.

I recall some discussions on the line where vibrancy becomes vibrato becomes a wobble.

I think I linked this....warning....not for those with a nervous disposition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_FkqdCZTw

Now here, outside of art song; she displays all the characteristics I so dislike about her Wagner. But at least it is short. At one time early in her international career she was a disciplined singer. Desdemona comes to mind. She could pull it out of the hat on occasion. For years I resisted the Kleiber Rosenkavalier because she was in it, but in fact, her singing is good there. One begins to understand hwy she was booked. But for that Memories, she should have been booked....by the police for public nuisance.

So there we have the full blown wobble. In terms of vibrancy at the other end of things....in other words acceptable and an inherent characteristic rather than a developing problem, try this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzhgDsXd5nw

Barbara Hendricks; right from the very first note, but it does not disturb me at all; it is part of what makes this voice recognisable and provides its individuality.

I am aware we are roving well away from just discussing Hunt Lieberson, but I also know that so many times we divide the topics and discussion somehow immediately dies. No doubt we will return to HL for reference points.

Mike

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Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2011, 06:25:30 AM »
And I can't resist this for the seeming simplicity and the beauty of tone; though it does not embrace some of the qualities I know you look for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOOJ1rrkCGg

Mike
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2011, 06:33:13 AM »
And I can't resist this for the seeming simplicity and the beauty of tone; though it does not embrace some of the qualities I know you look for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOOJ1rrkCGg

Mike

Excellent, no objection whatsoever....
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2011, 06:41:14 AM »

I think I linked this....warning....not for those with a nervous disposition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_FkqdCZTw

Now here, outside of art song; she displays all the characteristics I so dislike about her Wagner. But at least it is short. At one time early in her international career she was a disciplined singer. Desdemona comes to mind. She could pull it out of the hat on occasion. For years I resisted the Kleiber Rosenkavalier because she was in it, but in fact, her singing is good there. One begins to understand hwy she was booked. But for that Memories, she should have been booked....by the police for public nuisance.

Mike

Is that supposed to be a self-parody??? I detest stuff like that, half-operatic, half-vaudeville. Actually, I saw Jones more than 10 years ago live. It was Mahler, can't remember what cycle with orchestra. Yikes, I'm listening to the clip now and she scoops down to a not very convincing sprech-stimme. Her Rosenkavalier is not half bad though.
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2011, 06:50:43 AM »
So there we have the full blown wobble. In terms of vibrancy at the other end of things....in other words acceptable and an inherent characteristic rather than a developing problem, try this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzhgDsXd5nw

Barbara Hendricks; right from the very first note, but it does not disturb me at all; it is part of what makes this voice recognisable and provides its individuality.


You may not believe this but I heard Barbara Hendricks Nacht und Träume in a masterclass with Jennie Tourel, heck, more than 35 years ago! She was a bit less self-conscious then. I don't object to her voice production but am not fond of the scoops.

Here might be a perfect example of a floating line as in Ich Atmet and not becoming static. I think the over slow tempo does weigh the song down more than what it should be.

ZB
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2011, 06:53:04 AM »
Here is Jones in 1964 and very listenable to she was then without that drastic wobble. The Italian is indistinct and not savoured; but if only she had stayed with this repertoire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glCW-ecdaHo

Mike
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I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2011, 06:56:23 AM »
You may not believe this but I heard Barbara Hendricks Nacht und Träume in a masterclass with Jennie Tourel, heck, more than 35 years ago! She was a bit less self-conscious then. I don't object to her voice production but am not fond of the scoops.

Here might be a perfect example of a floating line as in Ich Atmet and not becoming static. I think the over slow tempo does weigh the song down more than what it should be.

ZB

I do know what you mean about the scoops; but I am prepared to forgive it in some and not in others; inconsistent. Hendricks...I again find it as much part of the voice itself as the technique. I know that is inaccurate, but I accept it as such here.

You did not provide a link to the Ich Atmet.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2011, 07:04:47 AM »
I do know what you mean about the scoops; but I am prepared to forgive it in some and not in others; inconsistent. Hendricks...I again find it as much part of the voice itself as the technique. I know that is inaccurate, but I accept it as such here.

You did not provide a link to the Ich Atmet.

Mike

I was just about to revise my text as I realized it was unclear. What I meant was the Schubert song is a good example of the necessity for being able to support a floating line as in the Mahler song without getting static, somewhat like walking on a tightrope. While we're on the subject of Nacht und Träume, here's Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau who does navigate a slow tempo, but not too much to be maudlin, and a rather nice (though maybe uncharacteristic for him) thin sound that works very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otXVgpvumFs&feature=related

Janet



“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2011, 07:12:41 AM »
I like that, it is almost conversational.

When I have sung it I try to adopt an approach of extreme legato under the kind of sustained pressure of utilising the plunger on a hypodermic syringe to push the sound through, but with evenness and restraint, not stress.....difficult to make it sound sensible.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2011, 07:13:45 AM »
Here is Jones in 1964 and very listenable to she was then without that drastic wobble. The Italian is indistinct and not savoured; but if only she had stayed with this repertoire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glCW-ecdaHo

Mike

Overall very nice, but with due respect, the line is already uneven. The middle range is stronger from the beginning of the aria, a few notes later a weaker passaggio, and somewhat pushed out notes over the staff. Yes, she had quite an instrument then. The soft Bb in alt showed quite a bit of skill and the high C was glorious in the aria. Who is the tenor, Corelli?
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2011, 07:14:43 AM »
I like that, it is almost conversational.

When I have sung it I try to adopt an approach of extreme legato under the kind of sustained pressure of utilising the plunger on a hypodermic syringe to push the sound through, but with evenness and restraint, not stress.....difficult to make it sound sensible.

Mike

 ;D
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2011, 07:17:35 AM »
I agree, that was a voice in development and the right approach could have yielded much more pleasant results than the Wagner roles pushed her into. It was a very big voice, so of course she was leaped on to surmount the orchestra in Wagner and that is the journey that she took, unfortunately.

I did not listen with attention to the tenor; I doubt it was Corelli.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
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Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2011, 07:18:47 AM »
;D

Ah, seems you 'got' what I meant.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline Tsaraslondon

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson and vocal techniques
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2011, 11:15:32 PM »
What an interesting discussion - a joy to read it.  I haven't had time yet to listen to all the illustrations yet, but I look forward to doing so when I have the time.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Offline Harry Powell

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2011, 12:18:49 PM »
I like that, it is almost conversational.

When I have sung it I try to adopt an approach of extreme legato under the kind of sustained pressure of utilising the plunger on a hypodermic syringe to push the sound through, but with evenness and restraint, not stress.....difficult to make it sound sensible.

Mike

Hi Mike

Shall I deduce you are a baritone? That's the voice I'd like to have. Unfortunately, I was diagnosed as a tenor. Maybe in a future life.

Harry.
I'm not an native English speaker, so please feel free to let me know if I'm not expressing myself clearly.

Offline knight66

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson and vocal techniques
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2011, 12:23:15 PM »
Yes, baritone. Fast going to seed.

Mike
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I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2011, 07:56:42 AM »
Hi Mike

Shall I deduce you are a baritone? That's the voice I'd like to have. Unfortunately, I was diagnosed as a tenor. Maybe in a future life.

Harry.

That's the first time I heard baritone-wannabe from a tenor. Usually it's the other way around.
Maybe you already heard this one "Tenor is not a voice but a disease".

I, myself, am a self-proclaimed lyric soprano.
The voice type incredibly was for years a point of contention between teachers and myself who thought I was anywhere from a mezzo-soprano ("your high notes are not good enough" - well, I proved that one wrong) to dramatic coloratura (no - I can't go that high and forget about heavy repertoire!) In the end, as Jennie Tourel said in her masterclasses, "you have to discover your own voice".

ZB
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson and vocal techniques
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2011, 07:59:45 AM »
Yes, baritone. Fast going to seed.

Mike

Don't give up hope. Sing, at least a little, every day. Also, phys-ed like sit-ups and swimming can keep the breathing apparatus in good shape.

ZB
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson and vocal techniques
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2011, 09:32:05 AM »
The Nacht and Traume is very nice. I think it's the one on EMI's Schubert Lieder  on Record set.  I will check.


I think it's quite rare for baritones to be as  as confidential, conversational and intimate as this, FD least of all. Do you have any other examples of intimate confidential private singing? (Schreier does it quite often in Schumann I think -- it seems to be something tenors do more often, but maybe I'm wrong)


There is something else about the abandon of Hunt-Lieberson (that you don't get with too many classical singers but are abundant in pop) like she is being moved by the music and not the one always in control (although she is of course, but the impression the listener gets is experiencing the music together with the performer).

ZB

I think this is a interesting idea. So you think that Baker has this quality of abandon less so than LH-L? In Berlioz say, or in Bach or Mahler?  I'm going to try and find the time tomorrow to listen to some examples.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 09:39:36 AM by Mandryka »
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