Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson and vocal techniques

[knight66]

I think you will find this conversational style, possibly taken to extremes by Christian Gerhaher: but in his newer recordings. He sings in his older Arte Nove ones. He almost speaks in the Nagano Das Lied. He did the same in a Mahler song prom performance last year. So, I guess his latest lieder discs may utilise this same technique.

Mike

[Mandryka]

I think you will find this conversational style, possibly taken to extremes by Christian Gerhaher: but in his newer recordings. He sings in his older Arte Nove ones. He almost speaks in the Nagano Das Lied. He did the same in a Mahler song prom performance last year. So, I guess his latest lieder discs may utilise this same technique.

Mike

Yes I was at that prom. And here it is on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/v/4OVkYVofUUk

Actually it's very moving to hear it again

[knight66]

I had keenly anticipated his appearance; main reason I had bought tickets. But I sat there just willing him, to SING!

I have watched a little of the video and as I predicted in a review I did of the concert, it would have been heard better at home by virtue of the microphone.
Mike

[Guido]

I really don't know what you mean when you say he's speaking rather than singing Mike. I saw him in Tannhauser this year at the ROH and it was a ravishing (but smallish) sound. I'm listening to the 4th movement (Von Der Schonheit) from the Nagano, and I would just call this singing in the DFD mould. I've just skipped to the end of Der Abschied and it's the same... I'm very intrigued though, the way you describe it make sit sound really extreme! Maybe I'm not listening to the right things?

[Harry Powell]

I keep trying to listen to a really full-throated forte from Gerhaher.

[Harry Powell]

An example may be illuminating:

This man is very close to speaking.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4OVkYVofUUk

This old fellow sang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-SC8rbWYeI&playnext=1&list=PL0C4677B385AB2F0A

[Guido]

This is nuts!

[zamyrabyrd]

I think it's quite rare for baritones to be as  as confidential, conversational and intimate as this, FD least of all. Do you have any other examples of intimate confidential private singing? (Schreier does it quite often in Schumann I think -- it seems to be something tenors do more often, but maybe I'm wrong)

I think this is a interesting idea. So you think that Baker has this quality of abandon less so than LH-L? In Berlioz say, or in Bach or Mahler?  I'm going to try and find the time tomorrow to listen to some examples.

First of all, it really depends on the music being sung whether the illusion of being swept up with the emotion is called for. On Mezzo TV is a recurring clip of a mezzo-soprano singing a spirited Villa-Lobos piece and she doesn't smile once! The dry delivery of DFD is really not for everything and he does change his approach for whatever he is singing. Gerhaher in the Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen sounds like he is saving his voice, for what, I don't know. As baritones go, I like Souzay with a warm sound but also a sense of immediacy.

The quality of openness is very attractive in the Neruda songs with LHL. However, I would like to post a disclaimer before continuing and will give Beverly Sills as an example. Her bubbly enthusiasm outside the box, showing everyone how much she is enjoying the music is not that at all. Similarly I object to it in the Baker recording of Villanelle (1972 posted in this thread). She gives a punch to the "la" in the "la saison nouvelle" which would be nice if the words, NOT THE MUSIC demanded it. That is why I said I preferred a native French speaker who conveyed the message in the idiomatic manner that the language requires.

The wide range of expression in singing that includes the illusions of abandon, control and everything in between really depend on the possibilities of the instrument itself. One part is inborn, the other is a developmental process to make the voice more attuned or sensitive to expression.  Maria Callas worked on that her whole life. The technique that brings classical singing to a high level is messa di voce. Some singers may not have such a physical possibility to begin with; others may not think it is important.  I don't believe Baker had a lot of it. For me, it's a serious lack, if not present.

ZB

[knight66]

This is nuts!

Well, sitting in the hall and listening to Gerhaher, I felt cheated. I agree it sounds fine as broadcast, but he was not in a recording studio and very little of the sound got to where I was sitting. He was singing as though into my ear, which would have been OK in a small venue. But I do see this as a trend in his singing and I feel he utilises parlando-like effects which both make projection difficult and break up the legato.

Now the singer Harry chose clearly did not have a lot of voice left in terms of volume, but what the comparison shows clearly is a very different technique where the older singer pushes the sound across the words producing expression within legato. The younger singer attempts a conversational feel and in my opinion, especially in a live context, he has gone much too far.

As to Tannhauser, I read how well he had sung. I am not suggesting he sings everything in this minimalist way. Here is an extract from a review of a recording of Das Lied that I wrote in Feb 2010, before I heard him live. I had been promoting his discs on the Vocal Recital thread, so it is not as though I had a down on him. 

"Over in the Vocal Recital thread I have been banging on about how wonderful the baritone Christian Gerhaher is. Looking through his discography I saw that there was a 'Das Lied von der Erde'....... Gerhaher seems very self effacing in this instance in the final song. I want him to let go more. He can do the 'big' phrase, but then somehow the piece dies away. It is a subtle but also a rather subdued performance. I don't feel the grip and the epic arc of that final song, it sounds episodic. This in part would be Nagano's approach. I really felt that everyone would have been happier with the Schoenberg reduction. At one point I looked at the sleve to see whether it was a reduced orchestration, but of course it was not, there had been no piano and the opening of the piece was pretty full on. But thereafter there is a restraint for the most part that worked wonderfully,(with Nagano), in the 8th Symphony, but here failed me.

Gerhaher really deploys the words, but for example in the first song, he almost uses parlando and I much prefer a more defined legato. But it sounds extemporised, which many of the very best performances of music do. Especially in his second song, he unrolls it for us, though is somewhat pushed later in the wilder part of the song as the horses dash through the water, however, he is far from alone in that.

He is aided and abetted by Nagano who really goes for the filigree textures, the detail, but it ultimately feels small scale, despite the detail and beauty of the playing."

By the way, I thought the tenor on that recording was utterly underwhelming; but that is a different issue, he can't sing whereas I think Gerhaher is a very great singer and is experimenting, but I am not much enjoying the ride.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

Well, sitting in the hall and listening to Gerhaher, I felt cheated. I agree it sounds fine as broadcast, but he was not in a recording studio and very little of the sound got to where I was sitting. He was singing as though into my ear, which would have been OK in a small venue. But I do see this as a trend in his singing and I feel he utilises parlando-like effects which both make projection difficult and break up the legato.

Now the singer Harry chose clearly did not have a lot of voice left in terms of volume, but what the comparison shows clearly is a very different technique where the older singer pushes the sound across the words producing expression within legato. The younger singer attempts a conversational feel and in my opinion, especially in a live context, he has gone much too far.

Excellent description. In a nutshell, Schlusnus sang on his breath while Gerhaher sings with his breath (as anyone can do). Another difference can be felt in the D-E fach, where Sch. changes register (from "chest" to "head") by means of the covered tone while G. tries to swell  his falsetto in the throat.

When a singer does as Schlusnus, the listener in the theatre gets an unforgettable impression. That of the voice floating above the singer's head, filling the space, making every single particle of air vibrate. It's as if the singer was singing close to your ears (but not whispering, mind you!). I never get that impression from singers like Gerhaher.

[knight66]

You are right Harry. In those songs and in that key there are very few baritones who can carry the voice up to those top notes in an integration of registers. Most men who attempt the songs have trouble with the high lying notes. One way to cope is to almost shout them or at the least use the full voice at the top; which sticks out and is plain wrong. So G takes that more tasteful route, but still unintegrated, of tensing the throat muscles in order to literally squeeze the sound  and change register in order not to shout he also beefs up the tone of the falsetto volume to some extent. It is like pushing and pulling at the same time and if used extensively is damaging. However, it keeps being introduced for very short phrases. But you see the tenseness in his body and that indicates he is doing something that is not ideal.

He does the same thing in the Das Lied in his second song. It inevitably sounds somewhat stressed; which may fit the words....or may not.

The older singer had a much purer technique with which to cope with the high lying phrases.

Mike

[Guido]

While we at discussions of definitions can you explain the difference between singing on the breath and with the breath?

Mike I do see what you mean now. Part of the problem will certainly have been the RAH which is just awful for hearing soloists though. The following performance was barely audible for me in the place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQZUL9PvQE&feature=related - the only bits that were audible were when she soars above the stave.

Agreed also that the tenor was completely underwhelming in that Mahler recording, and just not good enough. I've actually never heard the piece sound as convincing with a Baritone - which baritone has ever been able to muster the radiance of a soprano voice?

[Guido]

And this performance from the same night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kytcjn8VIic&feature=related

Just sounded like a mouse fart. Literally ridiculous.

[knight66]

Guido, Yes, I can see that she seems perfectly fine in the 'recording' in terms of the weight of tone and she is not undersinging. I agree the hall is a difficult one. But it is better than it used to be. Was it a case of the orchestra playing too loud? On the Youtube you get the BBC balance.

I did hear Andreas Scholl sing Handel in the Hall, the orchestra was not too loud and he sounded like a little boy. Some pieces and some singers ought to avoid the largest halls despite the ticket income temptations.

I also experienced a great disappointment listening to the Berlioz Cleopatra in the Queen Eliz Hall a few months ago. Yannick Nézet-Séguin conducting Anna Caterina Antonacci. Although that is also a difficult hall, I nevertheless got the impression from what I could just about hear, that what I was being presented with was a recording where no microphones were present. I could tell there was a lot of detailed phrasing and drama being injected, but most of it inaudible from close to the front of the circle.

Lo and behold; they had made a recording together; which came out I think at almost the same time as the concert. There is a danger here that singers are increasingly singing with the microphone in mind, and no doubt producing some marvelous performances; but they are perhaps neglecting that they are in a concert hall where they must adapt and reach the audience beyond a set of speakers.

Now as to your question: I am sure that both Harry and Janet can supply a better explanation, but I will try to. Singing from the words literally uses less breath and support. This conversational issue we have been discussing involves an admixture of techniques as obviously many phrases are sung and sung through; but for effect, often to colour the narrative element of the words. You get broken legato as the words are being puffed out using enlarged speech on the note. This rather than the diaphragm being used like bellowes to push and support the sound and project the notes. So, instead he projects the words which happen to be on the notes.

Rex Harrison used this skilfully in My Fair Lady; but he was not ever a singer so was solving a problem of having to cope with a song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY&feature=related

Try it from one minute in.

Obviously this is a different and extreme illustration of what we have been referring to. But in a different context we are suggesting that G is adopting this kind of heightened speech in the middle of an art song in order to find something new in it; to freshen the approach and I think he is a good enough technician to rethink again and go back to proper singing. However, he has a following who would find him artistic if he broke wind in-tune and I suspect he will continue along this route. I just hope other singers don't imitate him.

Mike

[knight66]

I've actually never heard the piece sound as convincing with a Baritone - which baritone has ever been able to muster the radiance of a soprano voice?

I tend to agree here: regretfully. I much prefer it with the more commom Mezzo option. I have the piano score and years ago spent many hours going through that final song with a pianist friend. This was just for our own enjoyment, there was never any question of attempting it in public.

It is a monster of a sing, extraordinarily complex and with the need to carry your performance across mini 'symphonies' when the voice is silent, but the narrative continues. It was interesting to try different techniques to overcome what I found to be the most difficult technical phrases for my voice. I can see the temptations to go about it the wrong way to get an 'effect' and get you round and through the problems without actually overcoming them.

There is also the eventual magic where somehow through repetition the voice can flex like a glove and the specific phrase works as it should, despite the technique still falling short if the sequence is even slightly modified. Sometimes the vocal equipment acts as though it had a memory of its own.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

You are right Harry. In those songs and in that key there are very few baritones who can carry the voice up to those top notes in an integration of registers. Most men who attempt the songs have trouble with the high lying notes. One way to cope is to almost shout them or at the least use the full voice at the top; which sticks out and is plain wrong. So G takes that more tasteful route, but still unintegrated, of tensing the throat muscles in order to literally squeeze the sound  and change register in order not to shout he also beefs up the tone of the falsetto volume to some extent. It is like pushing and pulling at the same time and if used extensively is damaging. However, it keeps being introduced for very short phrases. But you see the tenseness in his body and that indicates he is doing something that is not ideal.

He does the same thing in the Das Lied in his second song. It inevitably sounds somewhat stressed; which may fit the words....or may not.

The older singer had a much purer technique with which to cope with the high lying phrases.

Mike

Now as to your question: I am sure that both Harry and Janet can supply a better explanation, but I will try to. Singing from the words literally uses less breath and support. This conversational issue we have been discussing involves an admixture of techniques as obviously many phrases are sung and sung through; but for effect, often to colour the narrative element of the words. You get broken legato as the words are being puffed out using enlarged speech on the note. This rather than the diaphragm being used like bellowes to push and support the sound and project the notes, rather than projecting the words which happen to be on the notes.

(...)
Obviously this is a different and extreme illustration of what we have been referring to. But in a different context we are suggesting that G is adopting this kind of heightened speech in the middle of an art song in order to find something new in it; to freshen the approach and I think he is a good enough technician to rethink again and go back to proper singing. However, he has a following who would find him artistic if he broke wind in-tune and I suspect he will continue along this route. I just hope other singers don't imitate him.

Mike

I cannot add anything to your analysis. I'd just recommend anyone still thinking us "nuts"    to listen to "German" baritones from the early years of the gramophone. They all had easy top notes, they could cope with any tessitura in half voice, they could even attempt a true "filatura". Take Janssen, Nissen, the forgotten Joseph Schwarz for example. Even if they studied in Central Europe, they were Italian schooled.

In Italy postwar most baritones began ignoring the right technique and preferred to take their chest resonance up to the high notes by means of forcing. In Germany everyone has been imitating Fischer-Dieskau, a singer who used a very personal way of joining registers but certainly sang true legato.

The problem is this "heightened speech" enables the singer to make any minute nuance he/she can conceive and audiences are beginning to appreciate this procedure. They are taught to listen to the words and their infinite range of shading and forget the physical impression a singer must make.

The difference between on the breath and just with the breath is explained in books, but the listener can learn to feel it.

I'd be fond of Zamyrabyrd's opinion on the Mahler Cycle sung by Schlusnus. He was past his sixties when he recorded the songs.

[zamyrabyrd]

I was searching on youtube for what Magda Olivero had to say in "Art of Singing - Golden Voices of the 20th Century" about speech and breath. A clip seemed to be online sometime ago but perhaps due to copyright might have been taken off. (Meanwhile, the DVD is ONLY $200+ new and $50+ used for this wonderful film! Thank goodness I was able to take out my video of 10+ years just now and review it.)

Ms. Olivero recounted what Schipa said: "the words must be small on the lips and the breath sends them running". So, pronunciation should be upfront, to bring the consonants as forward as possible. (English and Russian speakers have problems with back L's for instance.)

"Breath" is a little trickier and I'm not sure even those who do it right can explain it correctly. First of all, acoustically, one cannot push sound around. I don't like the concept of breath pressure at all, and certainly not "pushing". What a cello player friend told me about what she does with her instrument to get a large sound, is to enable the vibrating apparatus. Energy but not force is the idea. Hacking away on the strings doesn't get a bigger or better sound. More breath and/or pressure are counterproductive in singing.

So one can conclude more is less and less is more in singing and string playing. The old scuola cantorum idea of placing a candle in front of a chorister and if it goes out shows too much breath is very much the issue. Support must be absolute, however.

I love Schlusnus' singing so far have heard only one Mahler song. In fact, his for me is an ideal sound, not pushed but all-enveloping. Incidentally, I can't stand people who speak "at" others rather than "to" and the same for singers who do that.

Janet

[Harry Powell]

I understand what you say about force and its becoming "forcing" (is this grammatically ok?) but one cannot forget the huge amount of athletic exertion behind the operatic voice. In Hines' book "Great singers on great singing", Magda Olivero recollected having shed bitter tears as she learnt to use the right muscles to support the famous "column of air" - "I cannot do it. It's too strenuous" - she complained - "Don't say you can't! I won't hear you say that ever again. I'll make you do it and then you can die if you want. But - I can't - never again." - His maestro told her while clasping her head. We can say she succeded.

Now there are teachers at the conservatoire who encourage their pupils to sing without the "obsession with support". They teach them to place their voices without proper support. They simply love they all produce the same pale, "vibratoless" falsetto, as you comment on other thread.

[knight66]

Yes, the push is not about pushing in bursts, it is about supporting that column of air as it is expelled evenly to support the sound. Blow up a plastic swimming ring, then lie it on a surface and slowly force out the air evenly with a rolling pin. Difficult I think to be unambiguous so you don't say the opposite of what you mean here.

Singers with Flagstad said that her back, the ribs, expanded when she filled with air. noticeable when as in Siegfried the other singer had his arm round her mid back and could feel this happening. It was thought this was part of what gave her such breath control over long phrasing.

I suspect that now, technique is sold short as now singers have to get to grips with many languages right from the get go; whereas 70 years ago the techniques were majored on in Italian or German, then the singer might have to pick up other languages subsequently. In Germany until the 1940s and 1950s Italian opera was often sung in German. In England lots was sung in English even at Covent Garden.

Mike

[Guido]

Thanks for all the explanations. Very interesting - I have felt this instinctively in some singers, but never seen it described like that.

Mike - sorry meant to say Mezzo-soprano of course. It's sad being a male singer isn't it! But then I know plenty of sopranos whose favourite voice type is bass-baritone.

Harry - I do know what you mean about the pre-war/post war baritones/basses. There are so many people in this vocal category who seem to bellow at the top. Why do you think this big change occured? Thing is, however much people lament changes in singing, the "it used to be better" complaint, it's sort of the fault of the favoured generation in question (whichever era is being nostalgically recalled) for not passing their knowledge and expertise onto the generation...