If you could compose

[Karl Henning]

Put another way:  Anybody with a guitar is a songwriter;  anybody who can putter with a guitar (or plink some piano keys) can have ideas.  You do see that the art of composition is more than just getting an idea?

[Karl Henning]

An exanmple straight from the musical world:

Paul McCartney had the ideas for Liverpool Oratorio, and had the wherewithal to arrange that other people see to the execution of the ideas, notationally.  I've not heard the piece, so I have no opinion;  but my impression is that views are mixed at best as to the musical merits of the result.

[amw]

Take this idea, and apply it to another artistic discipline:  Do you see what stops people from painting, if they can come up with ideas?

Even less so. Hand any child a brush and they will paint. (I mean obviously some people can't paint because they're blind or have dysgraphia or some other thing.)

Of course the paintings probably won't be any good, but that's where the hard work comes in. Still, in composition, the ideas go along with the work, as every decision made while writing it out—whether macro or micro—necessitates new ideas.

I mean let's say your basic idea is "A massive Symphony, conveying a sense of impending catastrophe, mournful despair, hauting dread - ultimately resolving itself into a sense of grimly hopeless defiance. (- vandermolen, page 1)" Then you have to make the decisions: how does this Symphony begin, how does it end, what is the main theme/idea/thread of the music, what (if anything) is it placed in opposition to... etc. Each one of these answers will then raise new questions, e.g.: Will the Symphony be in one continuous span or multiple movements? (multiple.) How many movements? (three, Moderato ombroso e minaccioso, Allegro appassionato and Adagio doloroso.) What will happen in the first movement? (X, Y and Z.) How will X, Y and Z be articulated to the listener? (Through a massive tonal conflict between the blablabla main theme A and the contrasting theme B, both of which are united by the fate-rhythm C.) And so on until one gets down to the micro-level of putting sounds down in sequence. Should the next note be B-flat or B-natural? (B-natural.) Why? (It sounds right to me.) Etc.

I suppose the "musical training" part of this is knowing what questions to ask, as well as understanding that the more you write, the more the composition takes on a life of its own and one's earlier decisions have to be re-evaluated in light of this. But that can be learned, if you have the ideas, the desire to make anything of them and the time to commit to composition. The only real way to learn to compose is by composing. Same with any art form, or anything else really.

[Karl Henning]

Even less so. Hand any child a brush and they will paint. (I mean obviously some people can't paint because they're blind or have dysgraphia or some other thing.)

Of course the paintings probably won't be any good, but that's where the hard work comes in. Still, in composition, the ideas go along with the work, as every decision made while writing it out—whether macro or micro—necessitates new ideas.

Composition or painting, the ideas and the work go together;  and in both, having ideas doesn't mean having the tools to make a good composition (composition is also one of the disciplines of painting).

The acquisition of technique does not make up for lack of talent, but it aids talent.  Talent without technique, gets only so far.

[amw]

The acquisition of technique does not make up for lack of talent, but it aids talent.  Talent without technique, gets only so far.

I'm never quite sure what people mean by "technique"... unless they're talking about harmony and counterpoint exercises and that sort of thing. By "work" I mean actually sitting down and writing out your composition, for which the only technical requirements are—if the music is for acoustic instruments—an understanding of music notation and a "feel" for the instruments which admittedly goes beyond merely knowing the range and timbre (perhaps more accurately an empathy with instrumentalists?) but is still something that can be learned if people are inclined. Anything beyond that is determined entirely by your imagination.

[Karl Henning]

I pretty much agree, with the understanding that there's a lot of unpacking to be done with an understanding of music notation.

[Ken B]

Very interesting post. About ideas versus technical knowledge, I find myself in the opposite position. I have many great ideas, yet I lack an ability to get them down on paper.

I think it is very similar to the machine design engineering classes I took in college. It was always easy to come up with ideas that solved given problems, but when trying to realize them you are confronted to work out all of the fine details -- the "nuts and bolts", so to speak. In doing so, many practical problems arise and it is often the case that ideas be re-thought in the process of realization. This is the part that requires skill obtained through practice and study.

I totally agree about reading music, though. So many people say that they want to learn piano/compose/etc, but they complain that they can't read music. Learn! It isn't hard, really! Anyone can do it, especially if I can. Once you can read music, a door to a new, seemingly infinite world is opened to you.

I recently saw a cool thing on Youtube I was going to mention to you Nate: Orchestration 101.

I would like to read music but am thwarted by forces beyond my control: laziness, lassitude, yet more laziness, and a reluctance to work at it. 
Actually I did, long ago, learn the basic ideas, and even was able to kinda sorta a little bit read along with a few minutes of Mozart's 41.

Anyone know a good very basic book that comes with listening examples?

[EigenUser]

I recently saw a cool thing on Youtube I was going to mention to you Nate: Orchestration 101.

I would like to read music but am thwarted by forces beyond my control: laziness, lassitude, yet more laziness, and a reluctance to work at it. 
Actually I did, long ago, learn the basic ideas, and even was able to kinda sorta a little bit read along with a few minutes of Mozart's 41.

Anyone know a good very basic book that comes with listening examples?

Orchestration 101 = Ravel's orchestral output. My orchestration skills improved enormously after studying and getting to know his work. My problem is that I don't have much that is worth orchestrating . In the words of Jack Nicholson in "The Shining", "Lots of ideas; no good ones!". (*cue Lontano*).

Is there a link for the video?

I don't know of any basic books since I was taught early on in private lessons and elementary school. I'm sure that you can find all you need online, but I suspect that you are probably like me in that you like having a hard copy (I might be one of the few left in my generation).

Eulenberg, a series of miniature scores published by Schott, has a great resources on how to follow along with a score while listening. It's quite amazing to do this because you hears so many things that you didn't know were there. From then on, you will likely always hear these things with or without the score, whether it be an instrumental doubling or a whole counter-melody that you never noticed.

http://www.eulenburg.de/en_UK/partitur_lesen/partitur_einstieg/index.html

[Ken B]

Orchestration 101 = Ravel's orchestral output. My orchestration skills improved enormously after studying and getting to know his work. My problem is that I don't have much that is worth orchestrating . In the words of Jack Nicholson in "The Shining", "Lots of ideas; no good ones!". (*cue Lontano*).

Is there a link for the video?

I don't know of any basic books since I was taught early on in private lessons and elementary school. I'm sure that you can find all you need online, but I suspect that you are probably like me in that you like having a hard copy (I might be one of the few left in my generation).

Eulenberg, a series of miniature scores published by Schott, has a great resources on how to follow along with a score while listening. It's quite amazing to do this because you hears so many things that you didn't know were there. From then on, you will likely always hear these things with or without the score, whether it be an instrumental doubling or a whole counter-melody that you never noticed.

http://www.eulenburg.de/en_UK/partitur_lesen/partitur_einstieg/index.html

Links from here too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAntqlinCbk

I can see using an iPad app that highlights notes as music sounds, but basically yeah, I want a decent hard copy.

[Chaszz]

There's been recent discussion about ideas vs. technique, knowledge and the thorough working out of a composition. I brought up the issue of ideas in this thread two years ago, for a reason. I'm a musician myself, a guitarist and pretty good solo improvisor in jazz, folk and rock, and a classical music fan. But though I can ring variations on other musicians' melodies, I have never in my life had a decent idea for an original melody myself, of the type that might lead to a song or a sonata. On the other hand, a few people I've known over the years have had original melodies pop into their heads, one in particular quite frequently. This person is a music fan but not a musician. So I was struck by the fact that the gift of melodic ideas is rare, and perhaps should be exploited where it exists. I'm not trying to deny that creating music is only partly inspiration and also a lot of hard work. 

[Karl Henning]

You recall what Edison said . . . .