The Symphony Cyclist

[Brian]

Milhaud a turkey? I think not!

Indeed, he's very clearly a pheasant.

Glad to see love for Roussel's cycle - what superb symphonies they are! I have very good memories of Niels W. Gade's First.

[kishnevi]

Thanks for this!  I am not utterly mad for the Schumann symphonies, but I do think very well of them, and I have no quarrel with the orchestration, at all (the usual canard hurtled at 'Gibbering Bob').

I should have known I would get a reaction out of my comment!

But I'll try to explain myself a little better.
Part of my reaction to Schumann's orchestral works is due to the fact that I think he wrote some of the best piano and chamber music works in the business,  and I find that his orchestral works don't come near to the quality of the other genres.  Not just the symphonies, but also the violin and cello concertos--it's only the works for solo piano and orchestra that I think are really good.  Maybe his love for Clara got something extra into those.  At any rate, the works I don't particularly care for seem to me very much a lot of notes played, in the end, for no real purpose at all.  I only have the barest musical training, so I can't point to any specific elements and say it's those things that are flaws.  As best as my ears can tell me, it's the structure and the development of the ideas that don't work out very well.  I don't hear anything wrong with the orchestration.  It's more an overall effect.  I have at least three complete sets of the symphonies (Sawallisch, Volk, and Zinman) and none come close to impressing me.

Gade, on the other hand, seems to me to have written the symphonies Schumann wanted to write, with the structural coherence to make it all work together.  He's not at the level of Mendelssohn or Brahms, but not very far below them.

I got that BIS box when it was on sale a few months ago at Arkivmusic.  I noticed a couple of days ago that BIS is on sale at either Presto or MDT, so that might be a good opportunity to get the set if you don't have it already.  It includes, besides the symphonies, Gade's Violin Concerto and a cantata/oratorio thing called "The Crusaders" which is the only performance I don't particularly care for, and that's mostly on account on the tenor involved.

[Brian]

Gade, on the other hand, seems to me to have written the symphonies Schumann wanted to write, with the structural coherence to make it all work together.  He's not at the level of Mendelssohn or Brahms, but not very far below them.

A most interesting post, and given what you say here about Gade, I'd be interested in your opinion of Jeanne-Louise Farrenc (three symphs.) and Johann Kalliwoda (seven, but most notable are 3 and 5 I think), two more who fall in the "Schumann with verve" category for me. Schumann had written a review of Kalliwoda's Third for the Zeitung, and read the score to K's Fifth, immediately before embarking on his own symphony cycle.

[eyeresist]

Brilliant got the rights to Jarvi's old Stenhammar recordings:

Sadly they haven't included Jarvi's recording of the Serenade with the extra movement - that would really sell me on the set.
EDIT: Hey! That's the same pic as on the new issue of Boult's EMI RVW cycle.

I did buy Naxos's Roussel and William Schuman boxes this year. Both extremely well done, though to be honest the music itself rarely rises to what I call greatness.
I would like to get a cycle of Gade, but from what I've read and heard, neither existing cycle is exactly ideal.
BIS's Schnittke cycle was not ideal either, but so inexpensive as to still be worth obtaining (and I think he DOES sometimes rise to greatness).

[kishnevi]

A most interesting post, and given what you say here about Gade, I'd be interested in your opinion of Jeanne-Louise Farrenc (three symphs.) and Johann Kalliwoda (seven, but most notable are 3 and 5 I think), two more who fall in the "Schumann with verve" category for me. Schumann had written a review of Kalliwoda's Third for the Zeitung, and read the score to K's Fifth, immediately before embarking on his own symphony cycle.

Sadly, I can't tell you what my opinion is of those two composers, since I have never heard (to my recollection--maybe I heard it on the local classical music station when we had one here in Miami) a single note by either one.

I did buy Naxos's Roussel and William Schuman boxes this year. Both extremely well done, though to be honest the music itself rarely rises to what I call greatness.

Agree with you regarding Roussel. I skipped the Schuman box.

I would like to get a cycle of Gade, but from what I've read and heard, neither existing cycle is exactly ideal.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!  The BIS cycle is more than good enough, and the only weak spot for me, as I said before, is The Crusaders; there's nothing in the performances of the symphonies I would complain about.

[Brian]

Sadly, I can't tell you what my opinion is of those two composers, since I have never heard (to my recollection--maybe I heard it on the local classical music station when we had one here in Miami) a single note by either one.

Here are a few notes (and a few more) from Kalliwoda's Overture No 16, on CPO. A very late work for him - early 1860s - the clips from which appeared in the "Name that piece!" game a few months ago.

Roussel's Naxos box I would for the most part put in the "a lot of fun" category rather than the "profound" category, though a few of the works (Symphs. 3 and 4, Suite in F, Bacchus et Ariane) are uncommonly well-built and smartly scored examples of "fun."

[Grazioso]

For fellow symphony explorers: The following is a tentative list of composers whose complete symphonies have been recorded on CD. I have worked to verify accuracy of those listed, but errors are possible and omissions are likely, given the enormous breadth of classical music on disc. Corrections/additions welcome. Thanks.

A-G

Adams
Albert, S.
Alfano
Alfven
Alnaes
Arensky
Arnell
Arnold
Arriaga
Atterberg
Bach, J.C.
Balakirev
Bantock
Barati?
Barber
Bax
Beach
Beethoven
Berkeley, L.
Berlioz
Bernstein
Berwald
Bischoff
Bizet
Bliss
Bloch
Blomdahl
Boccherini
Borodin
Borreson
Bowen
Braga Santos
Brahms
Britten
Bruch
Bruckner
Burgmuller, N.
Bush
Carpenter
Carter
Casella
Chausson
Chavez
Cherubini
Clementi
Clifford
Collet
Copland
Corigliano
Danzi
Daugherty
Dawson
de Boeck
D'Indy
Dohnanyi
Draeseke
Dukas
Dupre
Dutilleux
Dvorak
Dyson
Eisler
Elgar
Emmanuel
Enescu
Englund
Erdmann
Eybler
Farrenc
Ferroud
Fesca
Fibich
Foerster
Franck
Frankel
Freitas Branco
Gade
Gaubert
Gerhard
Gernsheim
Glazunov
Gliere
Glinka
Goetz
Goldmark
Gottschalk
Gounod
Grechaninov
Grieg
Guilmant

more to come...

[The new erato]

You forgot Maurice Emmanuel.

[Grazioso]

What this tells me is that there are entirely too many symphonies being written.

Impossible, Sir   

You forgot Maurice Emmanuel.

A new name to me. Thanks. Amended.

[rw1883]

A few cycles that have made huge impressions:

Alfven
Arnold
Atterberg
Braga Santos
Madetoja
Magnard
Myaskovsky

I wasn't too impressed by the conducting in the Glazunov/Brilliant set, so I'm waiting for BIS to box the Serebrier (maybe I should get the Svetlanov?).  Also, I just ordered the Stenhammar on Brilliant and am expecting it to arrive soon...

[The new erato]

I think also the Swede Natanael Berg is lacking, his first 4 symphonies are available but I'm not completely sure about no 5:

[The new erato]

But Franco Alfanos's 2 symphonies have certainly been recorded by cpo.

[mc ukrneal]

I wish someone would do a Czerny cycle. I have two discs and 4 symphonies, but no cycle. This one is the place to start:
[asin]B000EQICCS[/asin]

[The new erato]

And George Antheil should be appended to the list!

[Grazioso]

I think also the Swede Natanael Berg is lacking, his first 4 symphonies are available but I'm not completely sure about no 5:

According to multiple sources, 6 symphonies written. Looks like only 1-4 recorded so far.

But Franco Alfanos's 2 symphonies have certainly been recorded by cpo.

Right you are. Thanks.

And George Antheil should be appended to the list!

Just figuring out how many symphonies he wrote is a challenge According to different sources, he wrote 6 numbered symphonies (including two different number 5's), the Jazz Symphony, a "Symphony" for 5 instruments, and a symphony in F. Any experts here to clarify?

I know 1, 3, 4, 5 (second version "Joyous"), 6, and the Jazz symphony have been recorded. Anyone have further info?

[Grazioso]

For fellow symphony explorers: The following is a tentative list of composers whose complete symphonies have been recorded on CD. I have worked to verify accuracy of those listed, but errors are possible and omissions are likely, given the enormous breadth of classical music on disc. Corrections/additions welcome. Thanks.

H-P

Halvorsen
Hamerik
Hanson
Harty
Hausegger
Haydn, J.
Haydn, M.?
Henze
Hermann
Herold
Herzogenberg
Hindemith
Hol
Holmboe
Honegger
Huber
Ibert
Ippolitov-Ivanov
Ives
Kabalevsky
Kalinnikov
Kancheli
Khatchaturian
Klami
Kodaly
Kokkonen
Kopylov
Korngold
Kraus (all extant)
Lajtha
Lalo
Landowski
Langaard
Lazzari
Le Duc
Le Penven
Leifs
Leighton
Lilburn
Lindblad
Liszt
Lloyd
Lutoslawski
Lyatoshynsky
Macmillan
Madetoja
Magnard
Mahler
Malipiero¹
Marshall-Hall?
Martin
Martinu
Martucci
Mathias
McEwen²
Mehul
Melartin
Mennin³
Messager
Messiaen
Miaskovsky
Mielck
Milhaud
Moeran
Mozart
Nielsen, C.
Nielsen, L.
Norgard
Onslow
Paderewski
Paine
Paray
Parry
Part
Penderecki
Pepping
Peterson-Berger
Pettersson
Pfitzner
Piston
Poulenc
Prokofiev

<sup>1. All numbered symphonies. Unnumbered sinfonias, too?
2. Solway Symphony. Earlier rejected symphony in A minor has been revived but not yet recorded?
3. 1 and 2 withdrawn. 3-9 recorded.</sup>

[Grazioso]

In addition to Antheil, anyone know if the complete symphonies/sinfonias of C.P.E. Bach and M. Haydn have been recorded? Thanks.

[DavidRoss]

Fact is, I do seek out obscurities regularly . . . I find that not all of them engage me with greatness.  YMMV[/font]

MM~V.  Seeking greats among relative unknowns is what brought me here in the first place.  But though I've learned to appreciate several less acclaimed composers, I've yet to "discover" one I'd call "great."  If Atterburg is "great," what then do we call Janáček or Dvořák?  "Super great"?  Brahms or Haydn ... "super duper great"?  And what about Bach or Mozart or Beethoven?  "Super duper extra colossally great"?

[Brahmsian]

MM~V.  Seeking greats among relative unknowns is what brought me here in the first place.  But though I've learned to appreciate several less acclaimed composers, I've yet to "discover" one I'd call "great."  If Atterburg is "great," what then do we call Janáček or Dvořák?  "Super great"?  Brahms or Haydn ... "super duper great"?  And what about Bach or Mozart or Beethoven?  "Super duper extra colossally great"?

Bruckner & Mahler - Super duper extra colossally great to Infinity + 1?   

[DavidRoss]

Bruckner & Mahler - Super duper extra colossally great to Infinity + 1?   

or Sibelius "to Infinity and beyond!"