Composers before originality....

[Opus106]

but if you have a problem with dissonance then you should most definitely stay away from 20th Century music.

That's an unfair generalisation in my opinion, MI. There is quite a lot of music from the 20th century, sometimes even without a romantic bent, which is not dissonant.

[Mirror Image]

That's an unfair generalisation in my opinion, MI. There is quite a lot of music from the 20th century, sometimes even without a romantic bent, which is not dissonant.

The point I was trying to make is that a lot, and I mean A LOT, of 20th Century music uses dissonance. By the way, it's not a generalization, it's a fact. Go listen to Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Ravel, Janacek, Shostakovich, Bartok, Vaughan Williams, etc. and tell me there isn't dissonance in their music.

[Opus106]

Go listen to Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Ravel, Janacek, Shostakovich, Bartok, Vaughan Williams, etc. and tell me there isn't dissonance in their music.

In every piece?

[Mirror Image]

In every piece?

Obviously not, Opus106, but, again, you're missing my point. Dissonance in 20th Century music was as natural as breathing. Anyway, I'm not going to argue with this any further. It's pointless. Dissonance was a great way to build tension in tonal music and, of course, atonal music relished in it.

[Grazioso]

The point I was trying to make is that a lot, and I mean A LOT, of 20th Century music uses dissonance. By the way, it's not a generalization, it's a fact. Go listen to Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Ravel, Janacek, Shostakovich, Bartok, Vaughan Williams, etc. and tell me there isn't dissonance in their music.

You can find dissonance just about anywhere you choose to look in classical music--Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. Some composers just add more pepper than others

[Mirror Image]

You can find dissonance just about anywhere you choose to look in classical music--Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. Some composers just add more pepper than others

Good point. I guess in the 20th Century they added tabasco sauce instead of pepper.

[bwv 1080]

what is "dissonant"?

[Mirror Image]

what is "dissonant"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance

[Grazioso]

Good point. I guess in the 20th Century they added tabasco sauce instead of pepper.

In the 20th century, they made meals out of pepper and then topped that with tabasco sauce 

The resolution of dissonance to consonance is a key part of Common Practice musical language. What's a 7th chord, if not dissonant? (It contains tritone and minor 7th intervals.) Resolve that to the tonic, as in a V7-I perfect cadence, and the world is returned to normal, children sleep peacefully, and puppies wag their tails

Interesting how the ear adapts to steady a diet of "pepper," as in jazz, where the harmonic language of the music is fundamentally, often extremely, dissonant by older standards.

[Mirror Image]

In the 20th century, they made meals out of pepper and then topped that with tabasco sauce 

The resolution of dissonance to consonance is a key part of Common Practice musical language. What's a 7th chord, if not dissonant? (It contains tritone and minor 7th intervals.) Resolve that to the tonic, as in a V7-I perfect cadence, and the world is returned to normal, children sleep peacefully, and puppies wag their tails

Interesting how the ear adapts to steady a diet of "pepper," as in jazz, where the harmonic language of the music is fundamentally, often extremely, dissonant by older standards.

I owe a big part of being able to adapt to dissonance by listening to jazz for a straight 10 years. When I heard Bartok for the first time, though, I was taken aback a bit, because I wasn't used to that musical language. When I listened again many months later I was better prepared for it.

[bwv 1080]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance

ah, that's a cop out.

a consonance is a combination of notes that sound pleasant to most people when played at the same time; dissonance is a combination of notes that sound harsh or unpleasant to most people.

such a rigorous and concrete definition, isn't it?  Based on that, maybe no combination of equal-tempered notes is dissonant, 12-tone chords and large clusters can all sound "pleasant"under the right context

[bwv 1080]

All music is noise, strictly speaking

[Mirror Image]

I do not care if Bartok was more original after changing to hard music. I like his earlier music it is more lyrical and the folk is not distorted it is clear. I like Kodaly more than Bartok because he kept the folk music clear and natural. But I like both of them, just Kodaly more. He was more of the real Hungarian, but Bartok was more a modern internationalist. Bartok was more an innovator but I like how Kodaly stayed within the traditional style.

I don't really care that you don't care. And most of Kodaly's music, for me, is as tasteless as unbuttered toast. The end.

[Mirror Image]

You are very rude. I am new here. You should show respect and be welcoming.

I should? Calling the music I love "noise," in other words: horrible, isn't going to win you any brownie points with me.

[Mirror Image]

I am just saying what I think. I am honest. You are both mean and rude. I will leave this thread.

Well almost all of your 21 posts thus far have made references to how you consider the music of Bartok, Ligeti, Penderecki, Xenakis, Prokofiev, among others, to be complete and utter garbage. My suggestion is to talk about the music enjoy rather than beating us all over the head with how much you dislike these composer's music.

[Mirror Image]

You have not read my posts properly. I do like some music of those composers and of all Modern composers. It is my favorite period of classical. But I think I should leave this thread now as you are very rude and intolerant.

I've read all of your posts and regardless if you like or dislike music from these composers doesn't change the fact that you insulted their music and continue to do so. I have plenty of tolerance, but what I have no tolerance for is people that continue to beat a dead horse.

No matter, Bartok's legacy is intact. His LOUD, HARSH, and NOISY music lives on!

[petrarch]

Boulez is mostly just noise

You know, the above just makes you seem ignorant and close-minded. You probably need to adjust and expand how you listen to music to be able to perceive the beauty, refinement and keen ear for sonority in the works of Boulez (try e.g. Éclat, Répons or Sur Incises). It might be that you don't like Boulez tout court and that would be fine, but from here it looks like you are ignoring and dissing such a rich and delightful sound world based simply on prejudice.

[petrarch]

First I was called myopic and now ignorant and closed minded. What a welcoming place this forum is. I thought forums were to share opinions. It looks like what you want me to be is the same opinion as you. I don't understand this but I will still say what I think. I am not breaking any rules. People are too sensitive. You hardly know me any of you.

That is probably correct, since you failed to note that I said "it just makes you seem". If you can't take some suggestions and advice without misinterpreting them, then it is your problem, because soon enough the good will will stop and your posts will be seen as nothing more than noise.

[petrarch]

And you failed to note that I gave the benefit of the doubt to Boulez's vocal music, the song cycles. I like them but not as much as my favourite music. Its fussy to quote me on one thing and not get what I am saying generally. It is good to have attention to detail but not that much. You are focusing on just one thing I say not the whole of it.

I recommended some instrumental music precisely because you mentioned you preferred his vocal music. His instrumental music is also worthwhile and quite rewarding if you invest some effort--that was my point, essentially.

But all that talk about being free to like whatever one wishes, breaking forum rules, and so on: No one is trying to curb your preferences, or acting as the forum police; only reacting to the derogatory tone you have used consistently since you joined, especially since the rationale has been of little substance.

[jowcol]

Just commenting on a statement you have made here, don't get angry ..

So .. following your logic I guess your man Boulez would fall into the 'mediocre artist' contingent on his own admission?

Kaplan I have to just ask you a little further on that, because I would like you to comment, if you can, on Boulez the composer. Schoenberg, they always say, 12-tone. Beethoven, elaboration of the Scherzo. Stravinsky, unbelievable rhythm and combinations. Is there a musical idea that you think you have focused on that might be stamped Boulez?

Boulez I think that I have to – sorry, I think that's synthesis. Because, you know, I am not typically French from this point of view. But I tried to join things, which were very separate before, as I mean, the Viennese tradition was especially the most recent one with Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, the Stravinsky and Bartok solution, and you know, the French tradition with Debussy and Messiaen. And I am in the meeting point of these three streams, let's say, and I would like to be considered like one of the first who tried to synthesize these worlds which were far apart, and which are closer in my world, my own world.

http://www.wqxr.org/programs/mam/2005/jul/03/transcript/

James-- very interesting and well put.  A lot of it has to do with how the material is appropriated and used at to whether  or not the result is an original statement or a weak paraphrase.  Stravinsky was also, to me, a master synthesizer in how, if he appropriated a "cell" or kernel of an idea, how he would then run it through the blender.  Given the role that serialism played in the "Avante Garde" for so long, can anybody but Schoenberg be called "original?"

"Genius Borrows nobly.'
Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Ideas improve. The meaning of words participates in the improvement. Plagiarism is necessary. Progress implies it. It embraces an author's phrase, makes use of his expressions, erases a false idea, and replaces it with the right idea."
Guy Debord

"The immature artist imitates. The mature artist steals."
Lionel Trilling

In response to Toucan's point,  not every synthesist is ,by definition, original by a long shot.