Topic: Star Trek vs. Star Wars: The Poll to End All Polls

[Grazioso]

Regarding Babylon 5 : excellent show overall, the thinking man's DS9 Low budget? Yes. Seasons 1 and 5 weak? Yes. Seasons 2-4 some of the best SF ever shown on TV? Hell yes.

[Grazioso]

I will agree with you on DS9, which is why I rank it better than Voyager or Enterprise... but all three shows demonstrate increasing willingness to throw the principles of trek under the bus for a militant pov.

For instance, in TNG Picard decided against reprogramming a captured borg with a virus meant to wipe out the borg (one of the greatest threats to the federation) because it's the morally wrong thing to do.  Janeway actively plotted plans of revolt and genocide for the borg.

Star Trek is about exploring the universe, meeting new races, finding peaceful solutions, and learning to co-exist with people that do not share your culture.  And this attitude is best demonstrated NOT by the diverse casting but by the actions and thoughts of Kirk and Picard.  And it is something that the newer shows don't get behind.  They changed the tone for the worst.  Enterprise demonstrates blind racism between humans and Vulcans; nearly every first contact in Voyager becomes militant, and Janeway always responds with force; DS9 is about breaking the bonds of fellowship to choose sides in a huge war.  None of the themes and actions in the last three shows are very trek.

That's probably overstating the case, but I'm glad you raise these points. One of the cornerstone elements of Trek is its liberal humanism, its belief in universal progress and the power of reason and good-will to solve problems.

In other words, it's hopelessly fake 

Seriously, I'm glad they made Janeway more of an ass-kicker because it gives us some contrast with Mr. Rogers Captain Picard and intentionally raises moral dilemmas: you're a gajillion light years away from the Federation you're supposed to represent, you have no backup and no recourse to higher authority, what do you do? What's more important: survival or honoring an abstract principle?

As for first contacts becoming militant, that's a reflection of reality. Not everyone wants to talk or respect your person or your values. They want your wallet or your territory and will kill to get it. Of course, how real do you want to get with escapist TV?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Regarding Babylon 5 : excellent show overall, the thinking man's DS9 Low budget? Yes. Seasons 1 and 5 weak? Yes. Seasons 2-4 some of the best SF ever shown on TV? Hell yes.

Well well, Babylon 5 'the thinking (wo)man's DS9' (as Lethe loves it, too)? DS9 isn't dumb entertainment by a long shot, so Babylon 5 must be sheer genius... Well, I'm going to watch it. I sincerely hope to be amazed...

[karlhenning]

I knew we needed an option for The Twilight Zone... I bet you would have voted for that.

You mean, this poll hasn't ended all polls? ; )

[Grazioso]

Well well, Babylon 5 'the thinking (wo)man's DS9' (as Lethe loves it, too)? DS9 isn't dumb entertainment by a long shot, so Babylon 5 must be sheer genius... Well, I'm going to watch it. I sincerely hope to be amazed...

It's surprisingly rich and dark, really putting the characters (some of them quite interesting) through the wringer. The stumbling block for some is the low production values, but actually some of the alien makeup far exceeds what you'd find in an average episode of Trek (where they just alter the forehead and nose a bit to make some throwaway race to be used in one episode). But after all, it's fiction, so just suspend disbelief and have fun with the storytelling.

[Grazioso]

You mean, this poll hasn't ended all polls? ; )

The Klingons are eating the Ewoks right now. It's over for those little teddy bears.

[karlhenning]

Most gratifying!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It's surprisingly rich and dark, really putting the characters (some of them quite interesting) through the wringer. The stumbling block for some is the low production values, but actually some of the alien makeup far exceeds what you'd find in an average episode of Trek (where they just alter the forehead and nose a bit to make some throwaway race to be used in one episode). But after all, it's fiction, so just suspend disbelief and have fun with the storytelling.

I can suspend disbelief with the best of 'em... As for 'dark', DS9 does that, too. But there is a limit to what the series allows a major character to do or go through, that is true. If Babylon 5 is more unflinching, it'll be certainly to my taste. But - DS9 will always remain precious to me.

[Grazioso]

I can suspend disbelief with the best of 'em... As for 'dark', DS9 does that, too. But there is a limit to what the series allows a major character to do or go through, that is true. If Babylon 5 is more unflinching, it'll be certainly to my taste. But - DS9 will always remain precious to me.

True. DS9 (which I enjoyed, don't get me wrong) pushed the limits a bit, but generally the Trek franchise is only willing to go so far. The tone usually remains relatively light and suitable for most ages.

One other nice thing about B5 is, during its major arc story in seasons 2-4, it tends to eschew what I call "tachyon episodes," those forgettable stories Trek became so fond of starting with TNG, where there's some lame pseudo-scientific problem to solve before something blows up.

[chasmaniac]

Grazioso, shouldn't you be off refereeing the Bookers or something?
 

[DavidW]

I don't know if TNG or Voyager is better but Borg is more elaborated and sophisticated in Voyager.

lol really?  Voyager completely and utterly destroyed the concept of the Borg, taking them from cool to stupid tools.

[DavidW]

What's more important: survival or honoring an abstract principle?

Since Robert brought it up, sometimes it is not about survival.  Janeway continued screwing with the borg even when they stopped posing a threat.  She felt it was a moral obligation to destroy or transform them... that kind of interference is very un-Trek like.  Also those episodes were handled extremely poorly, making one of the greatest villains of trek into complete pussies.

I don't have any problem with defending yourself when there is no other option, that is in line with the other trek shows.  My problem is that Voyager always went beyond that.  There were many times in which Janeway acts out of vengeance or spite.

[Grazioso]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFCBwob65Nw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/vFCBwob65Nw</a>

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thank you. Very very funny! 

[DavidW]

That was awesome Grazioso!

[eyeresist]

True. DS9 (which I enjoyed, don't get me wrong) pushed the limits a bit, but generally the Trek franchise is only willing to go so far. The tone usually remains relatively light and suitable for most ages.

So I guess you didn't see Enterprise season 3.
 

[karlhenning]

The Rebirth of Deadpan

[Grazioso]

So I guess you didn't see Enterprise season 3.

I gave up on Enterprise half way through. I just couldn't take it anymore

[DavidW]

I gave up on Enterprise half way through. I just couldn't take it anymore

You're not alone.  I could tolerate some of the shows, including the bad holodeck episodes on both ds9 and voyager... but I couldn't tolerate Enterprise.  The acting is so wooden, it makes the star wars prequel movies look well acted.

[karlhenning]

. . .  The acting is so wooden, it makes the star wars prequel movies look well acted.

Youch! ; )