Mozart Symphonies

Started by Mandryka, September 26, 2011, 09:49:57 AM

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Mandryka

Quote from: George on November 30, 2011, 10:48:38 AM
I don't doubt that the performances are good, but every Pristine release I have heard has sounded way too processed.

Yes well, what's the alternative? There's a transfer on a label called  Iron Needle that sells for $100+. And who's to say what that sounds like?

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

George

Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2011, 11:30:31 AM
Yes well, what's the alternative? There's a transfer on a label called  Iron Needle that sells for $100+. And who's to say what that sounds like?

Speaking only for myself, I guess the alternative is to either find someone who did an amateur, untreated transfer or simply do without.

I have no desire to give my money to people like Andrew Rose who produce work that I do not enjoy. I simply can't abide all that processing, noise reduction, fake stereo stuff that he does. And finding out recently that EMI, who are already the kings of noise reduction, have been using compression in their recent transfers has made me even more cautious about who I trust when it comes to historical transfers. That leaves plenty of money for labels/mastering engineers who do work that I do enjoy (Seth Winner, Ward Marston and Mark Obert Thorn.) Perhaps at some point they will transfer those Toscanini recordings, who knows?   
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Mandryka

#42
Quote from: toucan on November 30, 2011, 02:56:42 PM
Awfully slow this Scherchen (on the 29th) - must be a German thing.
Wonder how Toscanini takes it - awfully fast; didn't take much to... needle him.

The 25th and 29th, they fit together well, sort of like the 40th and 41st.
The 25th is passionate - the 29th is touching. Bruno Walter does both well. Sometimes sticking with the predictable is the right thing to do

Which Scherchen 29 do you have -- Czech or Vienna?

Sounds liked you're stuck in a groove with 29. I can't remember Walter's in fact -- a late recording, or a pre war one?



Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: George on November 30, 2011, 11:55:05 AM
Speaking only for myself, I guess the alternative is to either find someone who did an amateur, untreated transfer or simply do without.

I have no desire to give my money to people like Andrew Rose who produce work that I do not enjoy. I simply can't abide all that processing, noise reduction, fake stereo stuff that he does. And finding out recently that EMI, who are already the kings of noise reduction, have been using compression in their recent transfers has made me even more cautious about who I trust when it comes to historical transfers. That leaves plenty of money for labels/mastering engineers who do work that I do enjoy (Seth Winner, Ward Marston and Mark Obert Thorn.) Perhaps at some point they will transfer those Toscanini recordings, who knows?   

Obviously iof you don't enjoy it then steer well away, but I think that the performances transcend the sound problems.

I listened to the PC27 last night -- and then followed it with Abaddo/Serkin in the same concerto. There  is a major shift ins tyle of course, and it's not just the conductor. I thought that the were good things in both, but the earlier one was for me far more interesting.

I'd like to explore Serkin's recordings with Toscanini. I only know this one and a very fine Beethoven PC4.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

George

Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2011, 08:54:28 PMI'd like to explore Serkin's recordings with Toscanini. I only know this one and a very fine Beethoven PC4.

What years are they from? I have yet to hear Serkin with Toscanini.
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Mandryka

Quote from: George on November 30, 2011, 09:02:18 PM
What years are they from? I have yet to hear Serkin with Toscanini.

The PC27 is 1936.

There are two complete PC4s, with with NBC and the other with the NY orchestra. You can still  find the NBC one here:

http://tinyurl.com/d4tkt3e

I think that's it actually -- I don't think they recorded any more together.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

George

Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2011, 10:00:58 PM
The PC27 is 1936.

There are two complete PC4s, with with NBC and the other with the NY orchestra. You can still  find the NBC one here:

http://tinyurl.com/d4tkt3e

I think that's it actually -- I don't think they recorded any more together.

Thanks!
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

chasmaniac

What does the braintrust think of this one? Love the guy's Beethoven.

[asin]B000EQHTBI[/asin]
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 01, 2011, 04:20:39 AM
What does the braintrust think of this one? Love the guy's Beethoven.

Since none of the experts have answered this I'll take a stab.

I got this because I was looking for a HIP version which had some punch and power. This version more or less fits the bill. It's definitely "of its time" but doesn't sound wimpy. My only objections are that Van I. does the annoying HIP thing of taking too many repeats (like of development sections), and I thought the slow mvt. of #40 was a bit swift & lacking in menace. I still like my old Bruno Walter, but this is good to have as an alternative.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

chasmaniac

Quote from: Velimir on December 03, 2011, 08:20:32 AM
Since none of the experts have answered this I'll take a stab.

I got this because I was looking for a HIP version which had some punch and power. This version more or less fits the bill. It's definitely "of its time" but doesn't sound wimpy. My only objections are that Van I. does the annoying HIP thing of taking too many repeats (like of development sections), and I thought the slow mvt. of #40 was a bit swift & lacking in menace. I still like my old Bruno Walter, but this is good to have as an alternative.

That's a useful stab! Thanks.
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

Mandryka

If you are a member of symphonyshare, Toscanini's Prague symphony is now uploaded there ready for your collection.

Do try it, it's unforgettable in the opening adagio, and the rest of the first movement is deliciously aggressive and vulgar.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Leo K.

#51



I am drooling over old-school Mozart lately, it is like returning home, and I've forgotten the glory of these recordings. It feels so refreshing to return to these old MI accounts.

Right now listening to Fricsay's account of no.41 in C Major...so WOW.

8)

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Leo K on March 17, 2012, 08:34:08 AM
I am drooling over old-school Mozart lately, it is like returning home, and I've forgotten the glory of these recordings. It feels so refreshing to return to these old MI accounts.

Fricsay is actually far from "old school". He was one of the first conductors to embrace "lively, buoyant" Mozart, favoring lithe, streamlined lines and colorful sonorities. Quite the opposite of many Mozart conductors of his day.

He's always been my favorite Mozart conductor just for these qualities. Spunk over trudging.

Have you heard his Mozart opera recordings? Top 'o the heap!

   
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Mandryka

Agreed. Friscsay's Mozart is special. As is his Haydn -- he really had a feel for the drama and intensity of classical symphonies. His Beethoven is good too -- there's an amazing Beethoven 9 with FiDi.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mjwal

#54
Quote from: Mandryka on December 03, 2011, 11:10:45 AM
If you are a member of symphonyshare, Toscanini's Prague symphony is now uploaded there ready for your collection.

Do try it, it's unforgettable in the opening adagio, and the rest of the first movement is deliciously aggressive and vulgar.
It's on YouTube too, like a lot of stuff one has been seeking to hear - in vain without spending a fortune.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Leo K.

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 17, 2012, 06:10:44 PM
Fricsay is actually far from "old school". He was one of the first conductors to embrace "lively, buoyant" Mozart, favoring lithe, streamlined lines and colorful sonorities. Quite the opposite of many Mozart conductors of his day.

He's always been my favorite Mozart conductor just for these qualities. Spunk over trudging.

Have you heard his Mozart opera recordings? Top 'o the heap!



Thanks for the information, I haven't done a comparison with Fricsay's contempories and now I'd like to do that. I haven't heard his Mozart opera recordings yet, but thanks for the heads up on those!


Right now, I'm discovering this recording:



I have a bunch of Beecham's Haydn on old LPs and love them. Thought I'd give his Mozart a try and I'm GLAD I did!

8)

Mandryka

#56
The most interesting Mozartians of that generation are Casals and Scherchen and Klemperer. I've never heard any Mozart symphonies  from Van Beinum or from Rosbaud. If there are any they could be interesting as both are outstanding in Haydn symphonies.

Cantelli's 29 is another one worth catching. I don't know if he recorded more symphonies.

Oh by the way, be sure to check out Fricsay's RAIS Mozart symphonies. You may well like them more than the later Vienna records.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mjwal

#57
Myself, I would rate Rosbaud as a more significant Mozartian on record than Scherchen - he did record the first K.271 with Gieseking, his later collaborations with whom are superb (K.466 & 503), and apart from a horn concerto or two he regularly presented several major Mozart operas at the Aix-En-Provence Festival - one may admit of these that the recordings and a number of the singers are sometimes inadequate, but still: Le Nozze di Figaro is simply superb. And there are Mozart symphony recordings by him - K. 543 and 551. I have not heard these because I have only just discovered their existence and the 2 CDs they are in (with Mahler #7, which I already have & cherish) is too expensive for my pocket just now (Monograph, ever heard of that label? Me neither). P.S. Just found this review - the sound seems to be very poor, vitiating the performances to some considerable degree, so I won't be getting this:
http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-symphony-no-82-mozart-symphony-no-39-no-41-mahler-symphony-no-7-w135632/review
By the way, there are recordings with the SWF orchestra of several major Mozart symphonies by Ernest Bour, available as a very cheap collection in Germany/France. I haven't heard them - but if one believes as I do that he was not only nominally Rosbaud's successor at the SWR, as evidenced by his magnificent recordings with that orchestra of Schoenberg, Webern, Berg and Bartók among others, then they might be worth listening to - I am certainly going to try them. Another chief conductor of that orchestra was Michael Gielen, whom I have heard live conducting Mozart operas with brio but not symphonies; however, there is a really excellent K.543 out there on Arte Nova - I even prefer it to the performance by Erich Kleiber, who left us far too little of his Mozart (the Figaro is less gripping than Rosbaud's IMO).
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Scion7

After a long weekend with the ultra-Romantics, a little symphonic Mozart for a Monday:

When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Scion7

When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."