.

[toucan]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          .   

[Mirror Image]

I disagree. Classical music can be enjoyed by anyone who is willing to make the effort to understand it. In some cases, it does take exposure, but once this person has that exposure, then it's up to them to decide whether the music is for them or not.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Well I'm not upper class, and I like it, obviously. So Berlioz is wrong.

[DavidW]

I see nothing offensive about Berlioz' quote.  One needs to appreciate the change in the class structure across most of the world.  The lower class of that time has largely been replaced by the middle class.  The lower class of previous centuries were mostly uneducated and not privy to the comforts that most of us enjoy today.  The middle class today has a much better education, disposable income and enough leisure time that they can acquire a taste for fine art, and many do.  Had Berlioz been alive today he would not say that.  But given the time in which Berlioz lived, what he says makes perfect sense.  No need to be flustered by this quote.

[DieNacht]

Am not Berlioz personality connoisseur and not even a fan of him, but he actually also celebrates his alleged comradeship with Italian Brigands when staying in the mountains to the North of Rome, idealizing their lawless sense of freedom and lack of convention, calling them some of the best, if simple, people around. Don´t know his biography enough to say whether this was totally invented, it might very well be, but he writes so following a contemporary trend of romanticizing rebelliousness in a way that is not just a search for the picturesque or a simple voyerism towards the lower classes, but also has some critique of the conventional society and snobbishness, in the spirit of Rousseau´s criticism. In this he follows trends also seen in Schiller´s Die Räuber, Pinelli´s widely popular graphic series of Brigands, various operas with Brigand motifs, and travelogues of those days. So his view of the lower classes is not one-dimensionally derogative. Characteristically perhaps the quote seems to be of a late date, whereas his romanticizing the Brigands belong to his younger years. Yet the late remark is not without social understanding, I think.

[The new erato]

And the change in the way we listen to music. Taking an evening off and paying for a concert was unattainable for most people once upon a time. I saw one book pointing out that Beethovens music was written for a circle of around 2000 people, mainly in and around Vienna. Certainly gives pause for reflection.

[Josquin des Prez]

History seems to be proving him right up to this very day. The part where i object is not the elitism, but the classism, however, as many have said in this thread, that part was merely a result of the social conditions of the times.

[DavidW]

And the change in the way we listen to music. Taking an evening off and paying for a concert was unattainable for most people once upon a time. I saw one book pointing out that Beethovens music was written for a circle of around 2000 people, mainly in and around Vienna. Certainly gives pause for reflection.

Yes and today we just need access to a pc to have access to the same music, which can be done by anyone at a public library.

[Cato]

History seems to be proving him right up to this very day. The part where i object is not the elitism, but the classism, but, as many as said in this thread, that part was merely a result of the social conditions of the times.

A nice distinction!  How many "upper class" people today (i.e. economically upper class) are barbarous in taste and deed?  From what I have seen throughout the decades, the middle and lower classes (economically) have no monopoly on crudity.

David W.'s comments are on target.  And New Erato's observation is also not wrong, but keep in mind that piano reductions allowed the growing middle class to partake of new works, even though they could not yet afford concerts.

I disagree. Classical music can be enjoyed by anyone who is willing to make the effort to understand it. In some cases, it does take exposure, but once this person has that exposure, then it's up to them to decide whether the music is for them or not.

And there is the key: with libraries (which are not "free" - your taxes pay for them) offering access to classical music, anybody who wants to make the effort can discover all sorts of wonderful new worlds.

[jochanaan]

Um, anyone who thinks that elitism and class distinctions have been eliminated needs to look around him/her...

There is a line between liking/appreciation and understanding.  In my experience, neither class/wealth nor overall intelligence determines whether one will like classical music; but it does seem to either take, or evoke, a degree of mental brilliance to understand some of its depths and techniques.  But, ultimately, nothing can predict who will love "our" music--or who won't.

[Josquin des Prez]

nor overall intelligence

Think again.

[ibanezmonster]

Think again.

Well, you don't need to be smarter than average to enjoy classical music- people just think you do, because of the myths. It just takes a person who is willing to expand their tastes to more than what they are exposed to and what everyone else listens to.

I've known a guy who was a Bach fan who didn't seem to be the brightest guy in the world (in my experience, anyways) (and he even liked the Mahler I gave him). You just need an open mind and hopefully compatible tastes...

[some guy]

I wonder, is it too late to suggest that we should all read the original essay by Berlioz in its entirety? Perhaps even in a better translation, too. The putative elitism would certainly seem less central if we had the context of the whole essay.

DavidW has done a lot to counterbalance the interpretation toucan started with (presenting that interpretation as the perspective of Berlioz himself). But I still think it would be salutary to read the whole essay and not just the snippets toucan's provided us. (And to read it for itself, without toucan's interpretive overlay, either.)

[Cato]

Um, anyone who thinks that elitism and class distinctions have been eliminated needs to look around him/her...

There is a line between liking/appreciation and understanding.  In my experience, neither class/wealth nor overall intelligence determines whether one will like classical music; but it does seem to either take, or evoke, a degree of mental brilliance to understand some of its depths and techniques.  But, ultimately, nothing can predict who will love "our" music--or who won't.

Has anyone written that?  The consensus seems to be that such distinctions have eased, maybe even greatly, depending on where you live.

Your last line is quite true: e.g. I hoped that one of my three children might inherit my obsession, but no.  Not even close.

[jowcol]

Um, anyone who thinks that elitism and class distinctions have been eliminated needs to look around him/her...

There is a line between liking/appreciation and understanding.  In my experience, neither class/wealth nor overall intelligence determines whether one will like classical music; but it does seem to either take, or evoke, a degree of mental brilliance to understand some of its depths and techniques.  But, ultimately, nothing can predict who will love "our" music--or who won't.

I agree with the earlier point that judging Berlioz's earlier point in terms of modern class structure may not be that relevant.

And, as a pretty large experiment confirmation of what jochanaan has suggested, take a look look at El Sistema in Venezuela. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Sistema it seems that, at least there, lower classes can embrace classical music pretty readily.  I've talked to a several El Sistema students in the US who were very surprised when they came here about how little love there seemed to be for classical music by the middle class in the US.   

[Grazioso]

When were manual laborers in Berlioz's day even given a chance to cultivate an aesthetic sensibility or study art in depth?

But it does seem true that refinement in taste, or at least the knowledge and ability to tackle "high art" with sympathy and understanding, is limited. How many people both understand and enjoy Shakespeare or Milton, Bach or Beethoven, Michelangelo or Rubens? That's not inherently a class issue, though unfortunate restrictions in educational opportunities may come into play; to appreciate (not just enjoy) classical music requires extensive study.

[snyprrr]

uh ,... Philistines!!

[jochanaan]

Has anyone written that?  The consensus seems to be that such distinctions have eased, maybe even greatly, depending on where you live...

Well, lots of folks have written that.  Show me some evidence--and I'll take you on a tour of Denver's inner city; you may have to do some rethinking.