Missing Members

[DavidW]

[Madiel]

So if political discussions had been banned in GMG, Handelian would have concentrated upon his musical post, and he probably wouldn't have left the forum.

I find this an odd proposition. GMG is not some closed universe, it exists on the internet. If political discussions had been banned in GMG, a person who showed a desire to post about politics more often than about classical music would most likely go and spend time on a forum with a lot of discussion about politics.

Ideally, one that had a 'general discussion' area with a thread about classical music.

[prémont]

I find this an odd proposition. GMG is not some closed universe, it exists on the internet. If political discussions had been banned in GMG, a person who showed a desire to post about politics more often than about classical music would most likely go and spend time on a forum with a lot of discussion about politics.

Ideally, one that had a 'general discussion' area with a thread about classical music.

I may be wrong, but my impression is, that Handelian had a greater desire to post about music than about politics. This was probably why he registered here. But the political thread in the dinner seduced him to troll about politics. If this hadn't existed, I don't think he would begin to troll in the music threads. As you know, there are other posters here, who troll in the political thread, but not in the music threads.

[Madiel]

I may be wrong, but my impression is, that Handelian had a greater desire to post about music than about politics. This was probably why he registered here. But the political thread in the dinner seduced him to troll about politics. If this hadn't existed, I don't think he would begin to troll in the music threads. As you know, there are other posters here, who troll in the political thread, but not in the music threads.

But people change. Interests change.

Certainly, politics (and American politics in particular) and the discourse around it has changed over the years.

I think you're completely wrong to describe the political thread as 'seducing him to troll about politics'. That seems to fall into the fallacy again of having the moderators set out to create a thread about politics for people to troll in.  Trolling about politics is not something that people have learned here on GMG specifically, because there's a whole swathe of the internet where people have come to learn the "entertainment" value of talking shit about politics.  And wherever it was he learned that, or was seduced by how trolling felt, he brought that lesson to GMG.

Again, GMG is not some hermetically sealed environment.

[Karl Henning]

Interesting discussion, gents.

I'll say that there ought in fact to be value in discussing politics. I do enjoy having thoughtful, civil conversations with people whose viewpoint does not necessarily align with mine.  If a chap can discuss his thoughts and viewpoint (as opposed to, "all you libtards drink fetus & wheat germ smoothies, and wear baby-skin skullcaps") I may just learn things.

[prémont]

I think you're completely wrong to describe the political thread as 'seducing him to troll about politics'. That seems to fall into the fallacy again of having the moderators set out to create a thread about politics for people to troll in.

Of course the moderators haven't created a thread on politics with the single purpose of attracting people who want to troll. I just think it is an unavoidable side effect of harbouring that kind of thread, so it would be preferable if such threads didn't exist in GMG, which is a respectable music forum, where discussions about politics are relevent only to the extent they take their point of departure from musical subjects.

[prémont]

Interesting discussion, gents.

I'll say that there ought in fact to be value in discussing politics. I do enjoy having thoughtful, civil conversations with people whose viewpoint does not necessarily align with mine.  If a chap can discuss his thoughts and viewpoint (as opposed to, "all you libtards drink fetus & wheat germ smoothies, and wear baby-skin skullcaps") I may just learn things.

You have a kind of point there. And there are a lot of GMG posters (not the least yourself) who discuss political subjects in a civilized and often informative way. The problem is BTW that one or two trolls may poison the athmosphere and spoil the discussion for other posters. Often the trolls eventually leave the forum, and that's fine, but in other cases they cause other posters to leave, and this is most regrettable and may be avoided by closing the political threads. Another way would be more active moderation, but it seems as if the moderators take a long time to react, and much harm may be done before that. As I wrote earlier there are numerous other options on the internet, if one wants to discuss politics. However I realize, that trolls also may get problems in such threads, even if they may be tolerated for a long time.

[Madiel]

Of course the moderators haven't created a thread on politics with the single purpose of attracting people who want to troll. I just think it is an unavoidable side effect of harbouring that kind of thread, so it would be preferable if such threads didn't exist in GMG, which is a respectable music forum, where discussions about politics are relevent only to the extent they take their point of departure from musical subjects.

In my experience, many forums have an equivalent of The Lounge for off-topic discussions. Insisting on 'relevance' has its own downsides, including an effect on the kind of people who wish to hang out on a forum.

I've been involved in administrative law over my career. One of the worst nights of my life was a trivia night at an administrative law conference, where a roomful of administrative lawyers were subjected to a quiz where every question was about administrative law.

Sure, there were 2 tables at the front having a great time, with the people most heavily involved in the organisation running the conference. Most other people left before the quiz was over.

Think about that. A whole bunch of people who were at the conference precisely because they were interested in discussing administrative law, having a really bad time because even at dinner there was no topic but administrative law.

[Gurn Blanston]

You have a kind of point there. And there are a lot of GMG posters (not the least yourself) who discuss political subjects in a civilized and often informative way. The problem is BTW that one or two trolls may poison the athmosphere and spoil the discussion for other posters. Often the trolls eventually leave the forum, and that's fine, but in other cases they cause other posters to leave, and this is most regrettable and may be avoided by closing the political threads. Another way would be more active moderation, but it seems as if the moderators take a long time to react, and much harm may be done before that. As I wrote earlier there are numerous other options on the internet, if one wants to discuss politics. However I realize, that trolls also may get problems in such threads, even if they may be tolerated for a long time.

I think you are talking ancient history as far as mods reacting in the politics thread. We delete and chastise before you even know there has been a problem. It is the reason why some posters, who previously thrived here, have given up: they don't care at all about having their posts deleted before the desired effect has been gained.

In any case, as I said before, the train has left the station on this subject. There is a single USA Politics thread. It is heavily moderated and posts are subject to removal without delay or explanation. The quality of the discourse there has greatly improved since these draconian measures were implemented, and since the owner of the forum wishes the adults to have a place to discuss politics, then that is the bottom line. It'll be cool, time for us all to chill and discuss some music.

[prémont]

Think about that. A whole bunch of people who were at the conference precisely because they were interested in discussing administrative law, having a really bad time because even at dinner there was no topic but administrative law.

I do not think music can be compared to administrative law. There is so much more diversity in music, actually something for every taste, and music is something we are occupied with for pleasure and not just a dutiful passtime.

[Madiel]

I do not think music can be compared to administrative law. There is so much more diversity in music, actually something for every taste, and music is something we are occupied with for pleasure and not just a dutiful passtime.

Just because it would a dutiful pastime for you, don't assume it would be for everyone else!

[prémont]

I think you are talking ancient history as far as mods reacting in the politics thread. We delete and chastise before you even know there has been a problem. It is the reason why some posters, who previously thrived here, have given up: they don't care at all about having their posts deleted before the desired effect has been gained.

Not that ancient BTW, we have had some examples in the last two months. And lastly Handelian, whom more GMGers call a troll.

But if you intensify the moderation, it is probably the only option. For my own part, I do not post in the political thread, and I only read the post of a few selected posters. So I dont' need to care. What annoys me as a long standing GMGer is, that this political thread may cause some good old GMGers to leave the forum.

[prémont]

Just because it would a dutiful pastime for you, don't assume it would be for everyone else!

Both my parents were lawyers, so I have seen and heard a lot. They both unanimously advised me against juridical studies, despite the fact that they said I had a well-developed dialectical sense.

[Karl Henning]

Both my parents were lawyers, so I have seen and heard a lot. They both unanimously advised me against juridical studies, despite the fact that they said I had a well-developed dialectical sense.

You are blessed in your parents, friend.

[Wanderer]

BTW I have always thought, that political (and religious) threads should be banned in a civilized music forum like this one. If people want to discuss politics there are many alternative options.

It has been a mystery to me why this otherwise excellent forum has political thread(s). ... ...the combination of the political squabbling and then the loss of members reduced the forum to a few active members.

No forum is perfect, but I don't see how politics enhances a discussion of music.

Gentlemen, this is something that I've been saying for quite some time now. I sometimes contribute to the US political thread, but it isn't the reason as to why I post here. This is a music forum first and foremost. You would think since you know who left office, things would quieten down, but it seems to be going as strong as ever. I'm with San Antone and have certainly considered spending time on another forum, which I've done, but I don't understand how this forum can flourish if we have members leaving left and right with no new blood coming into the scenario or maybe there are new members signing up, but they just lurk in the shadows, because of their feeling that this many of this veteran members would rather spend their time talking politics then music.

What hasn't been explained is why we need a political topic on a music forum?  Politics and religion are hot button issues and discussions often become confrontational. 

I really don't get the necessity of having it here at all.

Of course the moderators haven't created a thread on politics with the single purpose of attracting people who want to troll. I just think it is an unavoidable side effect of harbouring that kind of thread, so it would be preferable if such threads didn't exist in GMG, which is a respectable music forum, where discussions about politics are relevent only to the extent they take their point of departure from musical subjects.

The problem is BTW that one or two trolls may poison the athmosphere and spoil the discussion for other posters. Often the trolls eventually leave the forum, and that's fine, but in other cases they cause other posters to leave, and this is most regrettable and may be avoided by closing the political threads. Another way would be more active moderation, but it seems as if the moderators take a long time to react, and much harm may be done before that. As I wrote earlier there are numerous other options on the internet, if one wants to discuss politics.

What annoys me as a long standing GMGer is, that this political thread may cause some good old GMGers to leave the forum.

I agree with the sentiments and concerns expressed above. I had suggested in the past that political threads should either be banned, or members should at least be given the ability to mute them. I don't understand why the second option, at least, is not pursued. I think it is by now well proven that these threads create an unnecessary toxic environment in the forum.

[Wanderer]

I don't understand why we need a ban of a topic for people to avoid it. I'm allowed to go to North Dakota, but I've been alive for 31 years without ever once being interested in going to North Dakota.

Only in this case, "North Dakota" is a dilapidated meth/junkie house on your daily commute to work, unavoidable and ubiquitous, from which brawls and general unpleasantness spill onto the neighbourhood time and time again at regular intervals. You don't have to go inside in order to think that something permanent ought to be done about it. Calling the cops every single time while neighbours get to the point of selling their houses and leaving because of its presence is hardly a solution.

It would be North Dakota, the (I assume beautiful and) remote US state, if the offending thread was not readily visible when hitting the "Show unread posts since last visit" button. And no, not using this functionality and navigating the forum through the main screen instead is not an acceptable alternative, because it is not convenient. Having to make a huge/uncomfortable detour in order to avoid "North Dakota" House on one's way to work does not mean that problem solved, everything is well in the neighbourhood.

And now excuse me while I go and look at some pictures from North Dakota. The state.   

[Florestan]

Why someone would join a classical music forum to become embroiled in political threads is beyond me.

I think that one's worldview is not strictly compartmentalized in boxes which have no communication whatsoever between themselves. My musical, literary, political, economical, social and religious convictions / opinions / preferences are intertwined. I joined this forum 14 years (I think) ago because I stumbled upon it musically, yet it was not very long before I started posting in religion and politics thread. (Though always in threads started by other people, not a single one of my own starting --- a fact well worth stressing.)

What is really beyond me is why most people (in the light of the topic at hand, even the most civil people) assume that people expressing different /diverging / antagonistic opinions are trolling or even clinically unable to argue in good faith (this last point has been made explicitly and I believe it's THE reason for Handelian's leaving.)

And if you choose to do it, you should have a strong stomach and count to one hundred before you post anything at all.

Fair enough, and I think all these years I showed a strong stomach and good counting abilities --- but I wonder how many of us could have stomached in full and tranquil composure the suggestion that we are not only not arguing on good faith, but actually medically unable to argue in good faith. (see last paragraph above).

That's what changed my mind so radically:  political threads can, and do, stimulate the worst even in the best people --- and I think that whatever stimulates the worst even in the best people should be actively discouraged.

[Karl Henning]

I agree with the sentiments and concerns expressed above. I had suggested in the past that political threads should either be banned, or members should at least be given the ability to mute them. I don't understand why the second option, at least, is not pursued. [snip]

In the present case, at least, that would have made no difference. I have no expectation that Handelian would have muted the thread: he was here to troll (i.e. he was bent on being part of the problem.

[Mirror Image]

I don't understand why we need a ban of a topic for people to avoid it. I'm allowed to go to North Dakota, but I've been alive for 31 years without ever once being interested in going to North Dakota.

Political and religious topics have always incited heated debate. The problem with this is in some cases is that some members get offended and as a result end up leaving the forum, which we've all been witness to at this juncture. Ignoring isn't really the answer any longer. I truly believe something needs to be done about the political threads, because, quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing people leave because of some stupid argument that, in reality, doesn't mean anything to anyone at the end of the day. What is of utmost importance is the music and when you have long-time members contributing less and less to the musical topics and spend more time on the political threads, then I think that's a long-term problem. But I guess if we just ignore it, while one member after another vanished to never return, then I suppose we can talk to ourselves, but honestly, I don't need a forum to do that.

[Karl Henning]

What is really beyond me is why most people (in the light of the topic at hand, even the most civil people) assume that people expressing different erging / antagonistic opinions are trolling or even clinically unable to argue in good faith (this last point has been made explicitly and I believe it's THE reason for Handelian's leaving.)

Anyone who believes otherwise is at complete uncurtailed liberty to demonstrate otherwise if he can.  I never assert that any person whose opinion is merely different, diverging, or antagonistic to mine is medically incapable of arguing in good faith.

When my grandad dandled me on his knee in Bum's Landing, New Jersey, one of the things he taught me was: the devil cannot endure to be mocked. I took it as a lesson in human humility.