Missing Members

[North Star]

Good to hear from you Karlo.

+ 1.

Good to see you're doing well, Karlo  . You know your contributions on GMG are highly appreciated!

(* chortle *)

And so say I!

Thanks, Jeffrey, Andrei, Rafael and Karl.

[amw]

A tragedy that may have been prevented had someone just known about it. Unfortunately, not many people will know you have depression unless they can see how you are behind closed doors. It is most definitely a silent killer. I remember having some exchanges with him many years ago and he seemed like a pleasant, kind person. A great loss for not only his family, but this forum, too. A sad life he must have had --- if only I had known, I might could've helped him. I lost a good friend when I was high school to suicide, but the writing on the wall wasn't easy to tell. I do believe that his home life was in turmoil and that he was wrestling with some mental issues, but I simply couldn't tell. I know what it's like to feel like you're worthless and all hope is lost, but, thankfully, I overcame this and the main reason is because I have music. Without music, I surely would have died years ago.

Honestly—and I'm not saying this to be judgmental in any way—most people genuinely do not want to know. This is justified to some extent. Learning that someone you care about is suicidal often sparks empathy, which can lead you too to become depressed, or worse. People thus tend to avoid the suicidal and try to limit their empathy, which is why so much of what one hears when one reaches out to others for support is empty platitudes and clichés.

For example I've been planning suicide since the beginning of 2021, which I only bring up to say that I understand the situation. Almost no one I reached out to was helpful, whether family, friends or mental health professionals. At the moment I've structured my life in such a way that I'm committed to staying alive for at least another year, and if I don't there will be severe financial consequences for my family, so the idea of ending my life has been put on hold (possibly indefinitely), but the only way to get through a situation like this and remain alive afterwards is to find some way of headgaming yourself into survival. It's arguably better for your loved ones not to know, and the health profession has very limited capacity to assist you short of sedatives and/or constant surveillance—which, in the long term (at least from my personal experience, again), hurts more than it helps. This constant psychological self-management can wear one down over time as well, but in theory, adopting the sort of lifestyle one would have if one weren't suicidal can lead to a genuine change of heart, as such a lifestyle builds up elements of a life worth living. This is why suicidal people often act outwardly happy and untroubled. It obviously does not work for everyone.

I did not know Draško at all but I hope he's at peace now.

[Spotted Horses]

For example I've been planning suicide since the beginning of 2021, which I only bring up to say that I understand the situation. Almost no one I reached out to was helpful, whether family, friends or mental health professionals. At the moment I've structured my life in such a way that I'm committed to staying alive for at least another year, and if I don't there will be severe financial consequences for my family, so the idea of ending my life has been put on hold (possibly indefinitely), but the only way to get through a situation like this and remain alive afterwards is to find some way of headgaming yourself into survival. It's arguably better for your loved ones not to know, and the health profession has very limited capacity to assist you short of sedatives and/or constant surveillance—which, in the long term (at least from my personal experience, again), hurts more than it helps. This constant psychological self-management can wear one down over time as well, but in theory, adopting the sort of lifestyle one would have if one weren't suicidal can lead to a genuine change of heart, as such a lifestyle builds up elements of a life worth living. This is why suicidal people often act outwardly happy and untroubled. It obviously does not work for everyone.

I did not know Draško at all but I hope he's at peace now.

I find this hard to read. You are, in my opinion, one of the smartest and most insightful people here, and one of the very few people here that I find myself wishing I knew in real life. I don't know what aspects of your life make you think of ending it, but I can confidently propose one counter-argument. I know at least one person who attempted suicide in earnest and failed. He would have succeeded if he had managed to get back into his room before he lost consciousness, allowing his dorm roommates to find him and get medical attention. After he got past that episode he went on to a productive life, and thinks of his suicidal past self as an incomprehensible aberration. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

[Florestan]

I've been planning suicide since the beginning of 2021, which I only bring up to say that I understand the situation. Almost no one I reached out to was helpful, whether family, friends or mental health professionals. At the moment I've structured my life in such a way that I'm committed to staying alive for at least another year, and if I don't there will be severe financial consequences for my family, so the idea of ending my life has been put on hold (possibly indefinitely), but the only way to get through a situation like this and remain alive afterwards is to find some way of headgaming yourself into survival. It's arguably better for your loved ones not to know, and the health profession has very limited capacity to assist you short of sedatives and/or constant surveillance—which, in the long term (at least from my personal experience, again), hurts more than it helps. This constant psychological self-management can wear one down over time as well, but in theory, adopting the sort of lifestyle one would have if one weren't suicidal can lead to a genuine change of heart, as such a lifestyle builds up elements of a life worth living. This is why suicidal people often act outwardly happy and untroubled. It obviously does not work for everyone.

I'm aware that nothing I can say would be of any help so I' will say nothing. I just hope you'll find the motivation and strength to carry on.

[Spotted Horses]

I think there is an aspect to the Drasko story which has not been emphasized, the burden of being a care-giver for a severely disabled family member. The article refers to a period of 20 years during which the mother was paralyzed and under the continuous care of her son. In these situations the care giver must forfeit his or her entire life, since outside support for the disabled person may be unavailable or inadequate. I have some experience with the burden this can entail.

The article mentions initial suspicion of murder-suicide which was revised in favor of the likelihood that the mother died of natural causes because no injuries were found. The true story is unknowable, but other scenarios can be imagined. It could be that the mother requested the assistance of her son in her suicide, and he was unable to live with this.

This is all speculation, but the clear message is the need for people to care for people around them.

And, of course, people should know that resources are available. In the U.S. one can call the National Suicde Prevention Hotline, 800-273-8255. I assume that similar resources are available in other places.

[vandermolen]

I'm aware that nothing I can say would be of any help so I' will say nothing. I just hope you'll find the motivation and strength to carry on.

I agree with Andrei.

[steve ridgway]

Learning that someone you care about is suicidal often sparks empathy, which can lead you too to become depressed, or worse.

This is true, I felt it years ago when practicing Buddhism and meditating only too well on the "suffering of sentient beings" without the conviction I could actually do anything to help them. I don't feel so much empathy nowadays, it's too hard to bear, and tend to be more detached, observational and logical. Remembering that the vast majority of stuff in the Universe has nothing whatever to do with humans, their thoughts and concerns, and would continue in all its glory without the human race or even the planet helps give me peace and perspective.

[Mirror Image]

Honestly—and I'm not saying this to be judgmental in any way—most people genuinely do not want to know. This is justified to some extent. Learning that someone you care about is suicidal often sparks empathy, which can lead you too to become depressed, or worse. People thus tend to avoid the suicidal and try to limit their empathy, which is why so much of what one hears when one reaches out to others for support is empty platitudes and clichés.

For example I've been planning suicide since the beginning of 2021, which I only bring up to say that I understand the situation. Almost no one I reached out to was helpful, whether family, friends or mental health professionals. At the moment I've structured my life in such a way that I'm committed to staying alive for at least another year, and if I don't there will be severe financial consequences for my family, so the idea of ending my life has been put on hold (possibly indefinitely), but the only way to get through a situation like this and remain alive afterwards is to find some way of headgaming yourself into survival. It's arguably better for your loved ones not to know, and the health profession has very limited capacity to assist you short of sedatives and/or constant surveillance—which, in the long term (at least from my personal experience, again), hurts more than it helps. This constant psychological self-management can wear one down over time as well, but in theory, adopting the sort of lifestyle one would have if one weren't suicidal can lead to a genuine change of heart, as such a lifestyle builds up elements of a life worth living. This is why suicidal people often act outwardly happy and untroubled. It obviously does not work for everyone.

I did not know Draško at all but I hope he's at peace now.

I wasn't aware of your own situation and I genuinely hope that life brings you peace and happiness. If you and I were friends in "real life" and I knew of your emotional state, I would do everything in my power to help you, because that's the kind of person I am. I can't speak of your family, friends, etc. It's just too bad we're nothing more than acquaintances on the internet. Anyway, I wish you well and if you need anything at all, then don't hesitate to send me a personal message.

[André]

I find this hard to read. You are, in my opinion, one of the smartest and most insightful people here, and one of the very few people here that I find myself wishing I knew in real life. I don't know what aspects of your life make you think of ending it, but I can confidently propose one counter-argument. I know at least one person who attempted suicide in earnest and failed. He would have succeeded if he had managed to get back into his room before he lost consciousness, allowing his dorm roommates to find him and get medical attention. After he got past that episode he went on to a productive life, and thinks of his suicidal past self as an incomprehensible aberration. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

While this may look obvious, it bears repeating, again and again. Keep well, amw.

[Brian]

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

While this may look obvious, it bears repeating, again and again. Keep well, amw.

It's one of those truths which, while obvious to the speaker, is often inconceivable to the hearer. For me, when I went through a severe depressive phase a decade ago, the idea that "it gets better" was something everyone told me - but I didn't believe them. It's hard to see when you're "in" it. It was like when people told me, "oh eventually you'll find a good job," or "oh eventually you'll find a personal partner." All of my years of experience at the time were of the opposite. And you only know what you know.

It ended up being true, of course. All those things people said proved true. But you couldn't go back in time and convince my depressed state of them. That's the paradoxical, cruel nature of it. It's a disease that wins by convincing you that it will win.

Having said all of this, my struggles were situationally based. I was in a bad life situation, and gradually it improved. My mental state took about 18 months to catch up to the improved situation in life. Milos sounds like he was also in a tragic situation in life, and reading the news article and ensuing discussion has been hard and heartbreaking for me.

There are many people who experience depression chronically, no matter their life circumstance, no matter what happens. (The writer David Foster Wallace chronicled his depression vividly before ending his own suffering.) It's a cruelty of the world which I hope nobody here knows, neither amw nor anyone else.

To amw and any others with similar situations: I truly hope the load lightens. It won't be quickly. But I hope it will be steadily.

[amw]

I know at least one person who attempted suicide in earnest and failed. He would have succeeded if he had managed to get back into his room before he lost consciousness, allowing his dorm roommates to find him and get medical attention. After he got past that episode he went on to a productive life, and thinks of his suicidal past self as an incomprehensible aberration.

To be totally clear I was not "asking for help" or whatever: the means I used in order to avoid attempting suicide did make my life more unstable in the short term but I'm now on the track towards long-term security and my life situation has improved in almost all respects, and will continue to do so for the near future. Financially things won't be ideal, but in terms of life functionality I expect to be doing better than I have in at least a decade by this time next year. It's just essentially a "fake it until you make it" strategy, and with lifelong chronic suicidality you have to understand that you'll never truly "make it" the way other people will; the best you can hope for is being able to appear normal to others (which I have a lot of practice at), and keeping your urges at bay through a complicated system of mental checks and balances, with room built in to account for occasional failures. Any adverse life circumstance added to this—such as an illness or death in the family, for example—destabilises the mental routine, takes up all the space you set aside for your occasional lapse, and cuts your margin of error to zero. In this case, I don't think it's particularly respectful to speculate about the cause of that death in the family, or even whether Draško's depression was chronic or situational; both can be of equal severity, one simply lasts longer.

There are many people who experience depression chronically, no matter their life circumstance, no matter what happens.

17 years this summer, here. It doesn't get better, but you do get used to it.

I'm in a relatively good position right now. I hope others can also find their way to this point or a similar one.

[Madiel]

It's true that a lot of management of depression and suicidal thoughts has to happen internally.

This doesn't mean, however, that it's impossible for others to provide resources or support.

Stay well, amw.

[vandermolen]

I recommended this to a psychotherapist friend of mine who had a severely depressed client in a mental hospital. His client apparently found the book very helpful. I know that any book is not the answer to the vicissitudes of life - but you never know. A book that I have found helpful is the 'Wisdom of Insecurity' by Alan Watts, in which he points out that in Dante's 'Inferno' the way out of Hell is through the centre - I have found this weirdly comforting during difficult periods of my own life:

[Brian]

17 years this summer, here. It doesn't get better, but you do get used to it.

I'm in a relatively good position right now. I hope others can also find their way to this point or a similar one.

I hope so too. Best to you.

My best friend has this chronically but to a much lesser degree. At her point in life, with a good level of success and support from friends, she compares it to tinnitus: it's like a faint hum in the background that you can hear if you really focus, so you try not to. (Since I have tinnitus this was a good analogy for me.)

[Spotted Horses]

I hope so too. Best to you.

My best friend has this chronically but to a much lesser degree. At her point in life, with a good level of success and support from friends, she compares it to tinnitus: it's like a faint hum in the background that you can hear if you really focus, so you try not to. (Since I have tinnitus this was a good analogy for me.)

...except some people have tinnitus which is bad enough to drive them to suicide. As a Texan you must have come across the story of the CEO of Texas Roadhouse.

[Florestan]

Milos sounds like he was also in a tragic situation in life, and reading the news article and ensuing discussion has been hard and heartbreaking for me.

+ 1.

I pictured Milos as a child: his mother must have done everything in her power to make him happy despite his father's early death and that's how a strong tie of love and affection must have developped between them. I can think of no happier event in the world than a child playing with their mother and feeling loved and protected by her.

Then I fast forwarded to his life as an adult, devoting 20 (twenty!) years to taking care of her. all by himself. If I understood the article correctly, he had no life of his own, no close friends, no wife or girlfriend; his whole life was devoted to taking care of his mother. I do wonder how many of us would have been capable of such a self-denying filial love and devotion.  Music was quite clearly his only solace and escape from isolation and sadness.

It really broke my heart to read his story. And in hindsight, his avatar is all the more disturbing: behind his tonic and congenial GMG persona lied a profound and possibly irremediable loneliness and sadness.



May he rest in peace together with his beloved mother.

Sad, sad, extremely sad story.

[Florestan]

Also, there's a lesson I learned from both Drasko's case and amw's predicament: never ever anymore will I assume too much, if anything at all, from anyone's posts here about their character and personality; never ever anymore will I reply in an ironic, snide or sarcastic way to anyone in any circumstance. In this respect I deeply regret my behaviour towards some people here, first and foremost amw and hereby publicly and sincerely apologize.

[Brahmsian]

Incredibly sad news.

I've battled depression my whole life and have gone through a handful of really difficult times. I have managed to always find a way to get through it, but it has never been easy.

I count my blessings that I am currently doing very well now with a new medication with zero side effects (first time I can ever say that).

One of the biggest challenges of clinical depression is maintaining that remission period and remembering to continue the things that have helped you get out of the abyss.

Although I feel cured, history has shown that I slip back into it around 8-10 years.

Life is worth living, but at times it can most certainly feel like it isn't. For me, I have to work hard at it and continuously.

Working from home has been a major boon for my mental health. Unfortunately, I am ordered back to work in the office full time starting next week. That will add to my stress levels, which tremendously challenges my mental health.

[Florestan]

Incredibly sad news.

I've battled depression my whole life and have gone through a handful of really difficult times. I have managed to always find a way to get through it, but it has never been easy.

I count my blessings that I am currently doing very well now with a new medication with zero side effects (first time I can ever say that).

One of the biggest challenges of clinical depression is maintaining that remission period and remembering to continue the things that have helped you get out of the abyss.

Although I feel cured, history has shown that I slip back into it around 8-10 years.

Life is worth living, but at times it can most certainly feel like it isn't. For me, I have to work hard at it and continuously.

All strength and power to you, Ray.

FWIW, I am not completely alien to depression: although I have never experienced it myself (God be praised!) my father had it for more than a decade. And the problem was compound by the fact that, if he neglected his medication --- some depressives are quite prone to that especially if they feel better --- he went from depression to mania, which was as bad if not worse. A continuous, decade-long nightmare for both me and (especially) my mother.

[Karl Henning]

It took me awhile to understand how very real a problem depression is.