Request: Recommendations for an Opera Newbie

[Juan Carlo]

Hello everyone.

I've been meaning to get more into Opera, but knowing next to nothing about it, it's all a bit daunting and hard to find stuff that I might like (not to mention the fact that it usually takes several listens before I can truly decide if I like something or not, so it seems a bigger time investment than other forms of music). So I was hoping people on here might recommend some stuff to try out based on my tastes.

I first became interested in Opera mainly by way of two composers: Michael Nyman (because I loved his film scores) and Kurt Weill (because I love his musicals). I read that Nyman was influenced by Purcell, so I checked most of his stuff out and really liked it. Likewise, I also got more into Weill's more Operatic stuff beyond just "Threepenny Opera," as well as some other operas that I mostly just discovered randomly and haphazardly.

So, anyways, I thought I'd just list the stuff I'm familiar with and like in the hope that people here might be able to suggest some similar stuff that I could get into. I'd really appreciate it.

Nyman: I like all his stuff in varying degrees (including "Dada" and "Love Counts"), but I really loved "Facing Goya." I'm not even sure how respected he is in the world of Opera or anything, so maybe it's uncool to admit my love for him, but so be it. I think he's awesome. 

Weill: I haven't heard all of his stuff, but I love both "Threepenny Opera" (which I guess is more of a musical than an Opera) and "The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagony" (which is probably my favorite of his). I'd really like to hear "Die Bürgschaft" but haven't been able to get my hands on a copy yet.

Wagner: I absolutely LOVE "Tristan und Isolde." I haven't listened to anything else of Wagner's much. I guess what kind of puts me off is just how much pieces of his music have permeated pop culture in such a way that it kind of ruins it for me. When ever I hear "Ride of the Valkeryes," for example, "Kill the Wabbit, Kill the Wabbit" from those old bugs bunny cartoons pops into my head and it just kind of cheapens the emotional impact, I guess. Still, I recognize that he's probably more than just those brief popular segments, and I really do love "Tristan und Isolde," so I'm open to suggests about where else to go with his stuff.

Purcell: I really love both "King Arthur" and "Dido and Aeneas"--especially "Dido and Aeneas." Those are the only two of his that I've heard, though (and, yeah, hearing him kind of put Nyman into perspective as some of their stuff is very, very, similar--especially Nyman's scores for the Greenaway movies from the 1980s).

Zimmerman: I randomly stumbled on to "Die Soldaten" after reading about it a while back. I listened and it kind of blew my mind in a "WTF is this? I have never heard anything like this before" type way. I can't say I enjoyed it upon first listen per-se, but it was so unlike anything I'd heard before in a very unsettling way that it intrigued me enough to seek out one of the video productions of it just to see what on earth it was about. Upon seeing it, I thought the music was much more effective in the context of the visuals. So I stuck with it and it ended up growing on me. I still can't say that I "enjoy" it, per se (in the same way that you can, say, enjoy "Tristan und Isolde"), but there's just something fascinating to me about how it can kind of create a very powerful, anxiety tinged, emotional state in me that keeps me coming back (a bit like a child getting addicted to sticking his finger in a light socket, I guess.  ).

Berg: I've always been a huge fan of Tom Wait's musical version of "Wozzek" and Werner Herzog's movie version of it, so I thought I might as well give the Opera a try. I just got my hands on "Wozzek" and "Lulu" the other day, so I haven't had alot of time for them to sink in fully, but I like what I've heard so far.

So, anyway, this is literally the sum total of my experience with Opera. Apart from the basic pieces that have so permeated pop culture that basically everyone has heard them at one point or another, I really haven't heard any other Operas than these all the way through. 

So I guess I'm not a complete beginner, but like I said I only stumbled on to these more or less randomly.  I really have no idea how to even navigate the world of Opera in order to discover knew things that I might like, so I'm hoping some people here might be able to give me some suggestions of similar composers/Operas to the ones above that you think I might like.   Or even just popular Operas which might only be "remotely" similar, yet you think every Newbie would benefit from hearing.

Thanks for reading and I am looking forward to any suggestions people might have!

[Lisztianwagner]

I'm really glad to hear that you appreciate Tristan und Isolde, Wagner is my absolute favourite composer and Tristan is certainly one of the greatest masterpieces of all time!
As you like Wagner's music, you should definitely listen to cycle Der Ring des Nibelungen: Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung. About the recordings, Karajan, Solti, Barenboim and Bohm made wonderful versions of the Ring Cycle, certainly worth hearing.

Anyway all Wagner's opera are worth listening for me....

[Klaze]

That's quite a varied set of operas you've listened to.
I'm by no means an opera expert, but nevertheless would urge you to try these 20th century operas:

Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Bartok: Bluebeard's Castle

Both of which contain some pretty powerful and dramatic music, but which should pose no problem in terms of sound-world if you can appreciate Berg and Zimmermann.

An altogether different affair is Ravel - "L'enfant et les sortileges", which is very tuneful, and has a really original scenario: a kid refuses to do his homework and starts to molest objects and creatures around him, which suddenly come alive and want to punish him!. It's only around 45 minutes, so not much time is lost if you don't like it . But i think it's a really great work, not your typical big drama, but very poignant.

Other favorite (20th century) opera's include Britten's "Peter Grimes", and some of the operas of Janacek and Richard Strauss.

[knight66]

What a fascinating list for a beginner! None of the obvious ones really, Mozart,  Bizet, Verdi etc. Looking at what you have enjoyed, I suggest Britten's 'Peter Grimes'. I sense the music will attract you. This opera is in part about the moods of the sea and those permeate the score. It is very much an opera for grown ups with an excellent libretto. It looks at an outsider and how people judge. I recommend the recording with Jon Vickers as Grimes and conducted by Colin Davis.

Turning to Wagner: in a way there is nothing else like the narcotic that is Tristan. It is one of his late operas. If you like the slow unfolding of Tristan, then perhaps Parsifal is for you. It was Wagner's final opera and is somewhat like a symphony with voices as the music moves across vast spans of timelessness. There are no catchy tunes that have been subsumed within pop culture. You can drown in the soundscape, it yields to patient listening. I like the DG Karajan performance, though of course there are a number of great performances.

Mike

[Juan Carlo]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

I actually posted this same post on another opera forum, and people there also suggested both "Ligeti" and "Birtwhistle."  So perhaps I should start with those.

Messiaen sounds interesting as well, if only for his back story (in fact, all of James' suggestions look awesome).

I also do think I need to give the rest of Wagner a fair shake at some point.  I know "The Ring Cycle" is the most obvious place to start, I guess it's always just intimidated me a bit as it seems like a larger time investment.  Honestly, I just didn't "get" "Tristan und Isolde" the first time I heard it.  But I did, more or less, instantly fall in love with the prelude and the final aria, so that encouraged me to stick with the whole thing. After a month or so of listening on and off the whole thing finally opened up to me (i.e. I was able to sort of discern the hidden melodies and repetitions and how certain parts reflect others, and what not--sorry I'm not a musician so I'm not sure how to speak about this stuff) and I fell in love with it.  So,  yeah, I do think Wagner is a bit more of a time investment than someone like Purcell.  But I do find that the more "resistant" a piece of music initially is, the better it is once you finally do "get" it.  It's like the clouds suddenly parting and the sun shining through. 

Anyhow, I'll definitely give "Parsifal" a go.  Perhaps it will be more manageable than trying to crack the Ring.  I've also heard Britten and Bartok come up before, so perhaps I should try them out as well.

But thanks for the suggestions everyone.  I think you've all given me enough leads to last me a while.   

[mc ukrneal]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

I actually posted this same post on another opera forum, and people there also suggested both "Ligeti" and "Birtwhistle."  So perhaps I should start with those.

Messiaen sounds interesting as well, if only for his back story (in fact, all of James' suggestions look awesome).

I also do think I need to give the rest of Wagner a fair shake at some point.  I know "The Ring Cycle" is the most obvious place to start, I guess it's always just intimidated me a bit as it seems like a larger time investment.  Honestly, I just didn't "get" "Tristan und Isolde" the first time I heard it.  But I did, more or less, instantly fall in love with the prelude and the final aria, so that encouraged me to stick with the whole thing. After a month or so of listening on and off the whole thing finally opened up to me (i.e. I was able to sort of discern the hidden melodies and repetitions and how certain parts reflect others, and what not--sorry I'm not a musician so I'm not sure how to speak about this stuff) and I fell in love with it.  So,  yeah, I do think Wagner is a bit more of a time investment than someone like Purcell.  But I do find that the more "resistant" a piece of music initially is, the better it is once you finally do "get" it.  It's like the clouds suddenly parting and the sun shining through. 

Anyhow, I'll definitely give "Parsifal" a go.  Perhaps it will be more manageable than trying to crack the Ring.  I've also heard Britten and Bartok come up before, so perhaps I should try them out as well.

But thanks for the suggestions everyone.  I think you've all given me enough leads to last me a while.   

If you like psychological stuff, Britten's Turn of the Screw is quite interesting.  It is quite dramatic in the sense that the story is very vague in certain areas, allowing you to make multiple conclusions as to the hows, whys, etc. It is somewhat unusual in this sense. Sorry for being a bit vague myself, but I didn't want to give it away if you are unfamiliar with the story. Anyway, well worth putting on the list.

[Juan Carlo]

So, I've listen to some stuff and my impressions so far.

Britten's 'Peter Grimes'--Love this.  Probably my favorite (so far) of all the ones that people suggested.  It actually reminds me a bit more of a musical than an Opera, at times.  I mean, most of it is definitely Opera, but other parts almost remind me of something like Sondheim at his most non-mainstream (and I mean that as a compliment).

Ligeti's "LE GRAND MACABRE"--I'll maybe give this a couple more listens to be sure, but it has kind of left me cold so far.  My impression of it so far is that it seems like it might be"Visual" dependent and dialogue heavy--i.e. the sort of thing that you might absolutely need to see or have a libretto to appreciate. I don't know, though.  Maybe my musical palate isn't developed enough to appreciate it, but after listening like 5 times absolutely nothing sticks out at me.

Wagner's "Parsifal"--Love this one too.  Or the last act, anyway.  It's so long I thought I should take it one act at a time.  I got the 1962 Bayreuth version.  Hope that's good.

Bartok's "Bluebeard's Castle"--This one's pretty good.  I definitely like the last half, but I guess I'm still trying to make sense of it as a whole.  It doesn't grab me as much as "Parsifal" or "Peter Grimes," but it doesn't really turn me off either.  I think I need to listen some more before I decide what I think of it.

(and, yeah, I just downloaded all of these.   I didn't go out and buy them or anything.  Just letting you know so no one feels bad if I don't like something--or like they talked me into wasting my money.  I thought I should sample before I buy since this is all new territory.)

[mc ukrneal]

Wagner's "Parsifal"--Love this one too.  Or the last act, anyway.  It's so long I thought I should take it one act at a time.  I got the 1962 Bayreuth version.  Hope that's good.

The one conducted by Knappertsbusch? It's excellent.

[Wanderer]

Some excellent suggestions so far. Since you like, among others, Wagner, investigating more of his output would be a good idea - definitely check out Der Ring des Nibelungen. Also, don't neglect the so-called warhorses in this initial stage of your opera traversal: they're famous for a reason. Also, at this stage, you don't have to torture yourself with music the idiom of which clearly doesn't speak to you. Investigate widely, persevere within logical limits, but then there's plenty of other music to choose from - and with more musical experience the things you don't like now may become more palatable in the future. Until then, it might be more enjoyable and efficient to focus on what speaks to you the most and branch out from there.

Some more names and works for your consideration:

Mozart: Die Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni, Le nozze di Figaro
R. Strauss: Salome, Die Frau ohne Schatten, Elektra
Berlioz: Les Troyens
Schreker: Die Gezeichneten
Korngold: Die tote Stadt, Das Wunder der Heliane
Zemlinsky: Der Zwerg, Eine florentinische Tragödie
Puccini: Turandot, Tosca
Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov
Boito: Mefistofele
Szymanowski: King Roger
Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Hindemith: Sancta Susanna
Bizet: Carmen
Poulenc: Dialogues des Carmélites
Tchaikovsky: Eugene Onegin
Schoeck: Penthesilea
Langgaard: Antikrist
Offenbach: Les contes d'Hoffmann, La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
anything by Janáček

Also, do investigate the suggestions already made above. Happy listening!

[Drasko]

Weill: I haven't heard all of his stuff, but I love both "Threepenny Opera" (which I guess is more of a musical than an Opera) and "The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagony" (which is probably my favorite of his). I'd really like to hear "Die Bürgschaft" but haven't been able to get my hands on a copy yet.

I haven't heard all as well, but Seven Deadly Sins is excellent, also not quite an opera. You could also try Krenek's Jonny spielt auf.

Purcell: I really love both "King Arthur" and "Dido and Aeneas"--especially "Dido and Aeneas." Those are the only two of his that I've heard, though (and, yeah, hearing him kind of put Nyman into perspective as some of their stuff is very, very, similar--especially Nyman's scores for the Greenaway movies from the 1980s).

After Purcell you could try French Baroque. Don't have to jump into deep immediately with long tragedies liriques, as many composers wrote short catchy one-acters titled 'scenes de ballet'. Best of those would be Charpentier's Acteon and Rameau's Anacreon and Pygmalion. All available cheaply.

Berg: I've always been a huge fan of Tom Wait's musical version of "Wozzek" and Werner Herzog's movie version of it, so I thought I might as well give the Opera a try. I just got my hands on "Wozzek" and "Lulu" the other day, so I haven't had alot of time for them to sink in fully, but I like what I've heard so far.

Post Berg, but maybe easier on the ear than Ligeti or Zimmerman would be Henze. He wrote quite a few operas but you could try Die Bassariden for a start. 

   

[Xenophanes]

There's always the Beecham Boheme with De los Angeles, Bjoerling, Amara, Merrill, and Tozzi, an unbeatable cast, truly one of the recordings of the century. The sound is pretty good for 1956, and with such a lively performance, one forgets it's in mono.

Wagner's Ring Cycle. I can recommend Solti, but others are said to be good, too.

[Mirror Image]

Here are some operas that have caught my ear on more than one occasion:

Ravel: L'enfant et les sortileges
Debussy: Pelleas et Melisande
Bartok: Bluebeard's Castle
Wagner: The Ring, Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde
Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth of Mstsensk
Prokofiev: The Love Of Three Oranges, Semyon Kotko
Janacek: From the House of the Dead, Katya Kabanova
Stravinsky: The Rake's Progress
Delius: A Village Romeo & Juliet, Fennimore and Gerda, Koanga

I'm in the midst of discovering the operas of R. Strauss, Mussorgsky, Britten, and Poulenc's only opera. I'm not a huge opera fan, but I've come to enjoy the genre as there's a lot of wonderful music to be heard in these works.