Mystery Orchestra 17 - Bruckner Symphony No.9

[Sean]

Hi M

I was wondering how you rate the Karajan (only one digital recording on DG?): this was among my first LPs and my second Bruckner after K's early EMI Eighth, and was among the recordings that really changed my life and got me into music. (I remember I bought a second copy because I'd damaged it a bit; I also bought it on CD.) The mystery in the first movement particularly and the re-entries of the strings after the tuttis are heard as in ideal imagination; the slow movement climax also is both slightly understated and fabulously well prepared and measured, and the scherzo demonic and mercurial. A work and a performance that open up realms of meaning and understanding, entirely transcending ordinary life.

[M forever]

Are you talking about Karajan's recording(s) of #8 or #9?

[Greta]

I really like a lot Sawallisch and Wand. Both had the most emotional impact for me. Looks like the Wand set would be one I'd be interested in.

I also liked Dohnányi as an alternative, kind of modern view. Will definitely have to pick up that last Jochum from Operashare, some very fine things in there as well.

If anyone wants to take on another "Mystery", my Mahler 5th Mystery Comparison is still on! Adding two more clips soon, to make A-D and two Bonuses. Hope to see all of you over there.

[Sean]

Are you talking about Karajan's recording(s) of #8 or #9?

#9. Also I'd like to hear the Bruno Walter that the Penguiners rate so highly.

[M forever]

I was confused by the "digital" because there is no digital recording of the 9th with Karajan. He recorded it in 1966 and 1975 in Berlin. He conducted it in Berlin in 1985, but even though DG recorded more or less everything he did in Berlin at that time, they did not record that. I was in the concert which was extemely impressive. It was filmed but I never saw that available anywhere until I discovered Sony Japan has a DVD out which I will order during my next raid on hmv.co.jp. There is also a concert film with the WP from 1978 which I already have. And of course, there are a number of unauthorized live recordings floating around.
But I haven't listened to the DG recording from 1975 in a long time, so I can't really give an opinion about that...sorry. I just bought the complex box but it may be a while before I get to that. I don't think I ever heard the 1966 one, actually. Maybe I should go ahead and order that.

[Greta]

Do share your thoughts on these clips, M, when ya get a chance.

Curious what you think of that Sawallisch, I'd love to hear that whole performance.

[M forever]

I will eventually, when I am done posting nonsense in other peoples' threads.

[rubio]

Do share your thoughts on these clips, M, when ya get a chance.

Curious what you think of that Sawallisch, I'd love to hear that whole performance.

I have also been cosidering sampling some of Sawallisch Bruckner, and this 1st movement of the 9th seemed very fine indeed. Before it has been the 5th I have been targeting for purchase, but I have got some mixed comments about it. It's one of the reference recording for www.classicstoday.com, even if that does not tell us too much  .

[PerfectWagnerite]

M, what do you think about the rest of Masur's Bruckner cycle. That was a pretty good 9th. After searching classicstoday.com it turns out to be the only one they think is worth anything. Is the rest of the cycle really nasty or what?

[Sean]

I was confused by the "digital" because there is no digital recording of the 9th with Karajan. He recorded it in 1966 and 1975 in Berlin. He conducted it in Berlin in 1985, but even though DG recorded more or less everything he did in Berlin at that time, they did not record that. I was in the concert which was extemely impressive. It was filmed but I never saw that available anywhere until I discovered Sony Japan has a DVD out which I will order during my next raid on hmv.co.jp. There is also a concert film with the WP from 1978 which I already have. And of course, there are a number of unauthorized live recordings floating around.
But I haven't listened to the DG recording from 1975 in a long time, so I can't really give an opinion about that...sorry. I just bought the complex box but it may be a while before I get to that. I don't think I ever heard the 1966 one, actually. Maybe I should go ahead and order that.

Oh right, my mistake. The recording I had in mind I think came out on the 'Accolade' series, and became part of his set with the strange bird's wing in flour or whatever it was on the covers; very interesting about the other two recordings you mention- obviously an important work to Karajan.

[M forever]

I have also been cosidering sampling some of Sawallisch Bruckner, and this 1st movement of the 9th seemed very fine indeed. Before it has been the 5th I have been targeting for purchase, but I have got some mixed comments about it. It's one of the reference recording for www.classicstoday.com, even if that does not tell us too much  .

It is? I am surprised to hear that. But with "classicstoday" you never know. I would say it doesn't not tell you very much. I would say that tells you *nothing* at all. Those people are embarassing clowns who write "provocative" reviews partially because they are biased ignorants, partially because that unfortunately helps them get attention. You know, when you hammer out aggressive biased bullshit like especially Mr Hurwitz likes to do, you get more attention than when you voice differentiated, unspectacular, maybe more difficult to understand opinions. It also puts people into a defensive position because they don't want to appear "less critical".

Anyway, I don't have the 5th yet because it is currently not available on these shores, but I ordered it among a ton of other stuff from amazon.de, and I am waiting for the package right now. I usually have the stuff from amazon.de sent to my mother in Berlin to save shipping costs, and once every half year or so, she sends me a package.

The reasons why I listen to specific recordings are often different from those other people may have. Which I guess applies to most of us.
I already have the Sawallisch/BStO Bruckner 1, 6, and 9, and what interests me most about these recordings is not if they are the "greatest" Bruckner recordings ever. I am interested in the great and very stylish orchestral playing and Sawallisch's straightforward and unfussy direction has more value than it may appear at first, too.

The BStO is a great orchestra and one which unfortunately is not recorded that often, although they have some great recordings and videos with Kleiber out and even a complete Ring with Sawallisch. They have a very deep, rich sound, dark but with many colors, very traditional and very representative of one part of the fairly wide spectrum of German orchestral styles. Which you can illustrate for yourself by comparing it to the SOBR clip - very similar, basically the same style - and the SD one which sounds very different. But what all these orchestras have in common is a special way of playing, of sounding the notes, playing together not in a metronomic way, but mostly by ear and feel. That's a way of playing which can't be learned by following instructions, one can only grow into it. This is what is called "idiomatic" and it is preserved in these orchestras. And that's what most interests me in these recordings.

I wouldn't say that Sawallisch's interpretation is secondary for me, but there are so many different ways to read these pieces, and many of them allow you to discover new and different aspects of the music. Sure, I have my favorites, too, but that can also change and I really don't waste much time anymore thinking about that. I rather enjoy all these different performances. Just as long as they are stylish and simply good music making.

[M forever]

M, what do you think about the rest of Masur's Bruckner cycle. That was a pretty good 9th. After searching classicstoday.com it turns out to be the only one they think is worth anything. Is the rest of the cycle really nasty or what?

See my post above for what I think about "classicstoday". I am disappointed you even read that nonsense.

Similar things like the ones which I said about Sawallisch and the BStO above also apply here. My main interest in Masur's cycle is the orchestral culture documented there. Masur's interpretations have their good and maybe not so good elements like those of many other interpreters.

It is true he takes a very different overall approach from a lot of other conductors and the cycle is not exactly one of the most "spectacular" ones. He does often hold the brass back quite a bit and tries to achieve a deep, blended and dark sound which at times seems "underpowered" and the slightly muffled quality of some of the recordings doesn't help to make these "demo" discs either.

But his approach has other merits and there is a lot of fine musicianship at work which I enjoy listening to once in a while. I find it all the more intriguing to listen to this very "lyrical" approach, if one wants to call it that, since at around the same time they made these recordings in Leipzig, only two hours east in Dresden, Jochum was working on blasting the roof off the hall with the Staatskapelle, an orchestra with pretty much the same traditional background, and to hear how very different their results were.

Yes, I find Jochum ultimately more compelling and interesting musically, and the playing of the Staatskapelle Dresden has all the lyrical qualities of the GOL plus they have a dynamic range and can have a bite few other orchestras even approach, so these recordings are definitely more "exciting". But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy Masur's readings, too, for their specific qualities.

[PerfectWagnerite]

See my post above for what I think about "classicstoday". I am disappointed you even read that nonsense.


It is true he takes a very different overall approach from a lot of other conductors and the cycle is not exactly one of the most "spectacular" ones. He does often hold the brass back quite a bit and tries to achieve a deep, blended and dark sound which at times seems "underpowered" and the slightly muffled quality of some of the recordings doesn't help to make these "demo" discs either.


Yes, I find Jochum ultimately more compelling and interesting musically, and the playing of the Staatskapelle Dresden has all the lyrical qualities of the GOL plus they have a dynamic range and can have a bite few other orchestras even approach, so these recordings are definitely more "exciting". But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy Masur's readings, too, for their specific qualities.

Well I read it to check new recordings that get released plus older ones that might get reissued.

The sorted of blended sound of the LG on the Masur sort of lead me to think it might have been the VPO and the way the brass blast away on the Jochum recording lead me to think it might be the Leningrad Philharmonic for example. It's also funny how when you listen blindly with no preconceived notions about a performance you hear things differently. For example after you revealed the clips I went back and listen to my EMI Jochum 9th and it no longer sounded like the brass is blasting away...Oh well.

[M forever]

But they still are. The recording hasn't changed since I revealed the performers. This should tell you a lot about your own preconceptions and how these almost automatically kick in as soon as you "know" what you "think" you should "expect".

One of the things which made Jochum such a truly "great" conductor is how flexibly and sensitively he shaped his interpretations from the material he was given to work with, in other words, what the orchestras offered him. It is incredibly to hear his Bruckner 5 and 7 (the latter, especially) with the Orchestre National de France.
At that time, French orchestras rarely ever played Bruckner. In fact, incredible as it sounds, the 8th symphony was *premiered* in France only in 1961 (!) by Karajan and the WP. Barenboim introduced a lot of Bruckner with the Orchestre de Paris in the 70s, but it was still music that the traditional French orchestral style was not very adequate for, especially the brass playing. But they had highly refined woodwinds and very silky strings. So Jochum built very lyrical, "soft spoken" interpretations around he string body and woodwinds and more "colored" them with the brass than let the brass "lead". The result is rather unusual but sounds great and is still very musical.
At the same time, when he worked in Dresden, he knew he could demand much more from the brass, in fact, Dresden had a very long tradition of brass playing excellence schooled the hard way on Strauss' very demanding orchestral works and operas with which the orchestra has always been very closely associated, so he let them go totally ape in his EMI recordings. What's so great about these is not simply how "loud" they play, but with what tonal and musical flexibility at the same time. Otherwise, it would just be loud. And that in itself isn't so great.

[rubio]

M, could you comment a bit on the Wand performance of MO17F, and the set this is taken from. I wonder if I need another set to complement Jochum and Karajan, or if I only should go for more individual recordings. Another set that tempts me is the Skrowaczewski, but that seems to be rather expensive. How does he fare compared to other Bruckner interpreters (like the above mentioned)?

It would also be nice to have some comments on the von Dohnányi recording (where I have his 5th).

I think Masur is the only clip here I found moderatly interesting.

[Lilas Pastia]

This is one of the most fascinating threads I've read. Of course it helps that it discusses one of my favourite works, a pinnacle of western art. And another really intriguing feature was the variety of responses elicited by those clips. I mean, objectively we all hear the same excerpt, but subjectively we don't respond to them in the same way. Even what for me are objective facts are not necessarily heard by others as I hear them (like the Cleveland oboe sound for example).

I only have tinny earphones on my computer, so I didn't have much interest in listening to the clips (my listening room is downstairs, the computer room upstairs ). But I was drawn in and in any event, they were all listened to on the same crappy equipment, so they all got out of the gates at the same time.

One feature of the thread (or similar ones at that) that I don't really like is the temptation to peg names onto those sound clips. It makes very little sense. I have close to 30 versions of this symphony, and only one of them was featured in the MO17. It would be foolhardy to think that, out of the many dozens available, I could identify them correctly. Even the one I own - Kubelik - didn't really sound all that familiar when I listened to it (even after reading the answers - I listened to all the clips only today). I love this version of the symphony, but it's in other places that I would have been able to guess its identity. So much for familiarity with my own collection!

In any case, listening to the clips after reading the answers didn't prevent me from exercizing due diligence and objectivity. I was actually surprised to hear in Sawallisch and his bavarian orchestra (clip A) a reading I really connected with. I had always found Sawallisch a bit too cool and uninflected in his conducting. I'm now quite eager to hear the whole disc. Ditto with the Wand (clip F). I found this one almost like a guided tour of that first movement excerpt: extremely vivid and painstaking detailing of all the instrumental strands of the score. At the same time it's done with such an expert hand that it's always involving, never perfunctory. Objectively speaking, if I had to direct someone new to this work to a good phonographic representation of the work, that might well be it. I have two other Wands and as best as I recall them, they don't sound like that. For my money, the Masur (clip B) is notable mostly for superb orchestral playing. that in itself is certainly a very important quality. It remains to be heard if the whole thing adds up to more than that. I didn't sense a distinguishing profile here, but cumulatively it might work very well.

The single clip that struck me the most (by far) is the last, Jochum's MP one. I've read once that Jochum had lost his Bruckner scores a long time ago, meaning that this music is so much inside him that he almost recreates it every time he stepped onto the podium. This one is amazing for the liberties it takes, but also for the illuminating details that come out: the pecking winds at 1:45 to 2:02 are like nothing else I've heard and create a really frightening sense of anticipation. And that giant ritard when the main theme explodes in the full orchestra is jaw dropping, and yet it sounds theatrical, not cheap. These touches give an unusual shape and lighting to that familiar music. That's one I'm really interested in hearing in full. I don't want to read too much between the lines here, but there may well be a sense of the valedictory in this interpretation. Very moving (I'm listening to it again as I write).

After that, I clicked most with the Wand and Sawallisch readings. The latter reminds me a lot of the beloved Walter, but the orchestral sound is vastly different.

[Soundproof]

And another really intriguing feature was the variety of responses elicited by those clips. I mean, objectively we all hear the same excerpt, but subjectively we don't respond to them in the same way. Even what for me are objective facts are not necessarily heard by others as I hear them (...)

I really enjoyed your post! As to the variance in opinions. You know the saying: Writing about music is like trying to dance architecture. I think people's use of and understanding of language, when trying to express something as individual as musical perception, makes it a pretty tricky proposition. If we all agreed, I would be really worried!

Again, thanks for the informative and insightful commentaries.

[Sean]

By the way M, I've checked and the Accolade/ Galleria LPs of Karajan's Ninth I admired so much were the 1966 performance; I then bought the 1975 CD, which reveals little interpretive shift. Penguin hold that the earlier has 'natural gravity and profound contemplation in greater measure, with manners a degree more affectionate' with the later recording inevitably emphasizing strength, but they're both absolutely vintage Karajan, noble and direct, letting the music speak.

I admire all you Bruckner enthusiasts, especially as he is a somewhat acquired taste (the Bruckner abbey thread was extraordinary). Here's my modest exposure to the symphonies on disc-

00- Rozhdestvensky (& a radio recording before that)

0- Barenboim LP & Rozhdestvensky (Rozhdestvensky's 00 & 0 were in a double CD set and I strongly recommend the slightly lightweight Russian tinge he brings- the recording's also a landmark in realism)

1- Karajan (ruthless)

2- Haitink LP (Haas) & Karajan (Nowak) (Haitink very beautiful, this piece suiting his temperament well)

3- Haitink (1877) LP & Karajan (Nowak)

4- Karajan's EMI LP (both rustic charm and architecture)

5- Haitink LP & Karajan (Haitink's timid bevelling of edges annoys)

6- Baremboim LP & Karajan (Karajan doesn't quite succeed in finding the same gravity, if indeed it's in the piece)

7- Boehm LP (lacks magic, becoming turgid) & Karajan (magnificent). Also heard Masur live with Leipzig orchestra in Birmingham ~1989- v. fine and committed, from memory and batonless)

8- Karajan EMI LPs (Haas) & CD (Nowak) & VPO CD (Haas) (EMI is very strong with perhaps the finest slow movement, with the extended Haas sections, ever recorded; the VPO is a curious late disc, tempos and phrasing judged to absolute perfection but with controversial overbearing control at the same time).

9- Karajan LP (1966) & CD (sheer seriousness and grip over the whole canvass hard to match). Also the Samale, Phillips and Mazzuca completion of the last movement- very interesting towards the end, building up to a height of angry passion heard nowhere else in Bruckner.

[M forever]

Sean, this belongs in the Bruckner Abbey, not here.

[Sean]

Duly moved, or copied across anyway: I wasn't quite aware it still existed.