Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[DavidW]

I think that HIP is so vague that it's nearly useless.  If anything the type of "HIP" recordings mentioned here are anti-HIP.  When you say the heck with how it's been played for fifty years we are going to play it differently, you are throwing away history to do something different.  But if you say PI that is actually clear.  Either you use period instruments (or replicas) or you use modern instruments.  Not really confusing... except for ones that mix them up (use period instruments for part of the orchestra but not all)... oh drats!

[DarkAngel]

I still have a hard time bringing all these traditional guys into the HIP camp just because they played fast...

If you are still referring to new Jarvi/RCA being HIP.......my thinking is

It is not just using fleet lifted tempos, it is using smaller scale orchestra and more transparent clarified tones in playing style which reveal hidden neuances and melodies that are obscured in the larger thicker sounds of polished traditional large band performances.

Hybrid HIP today often uses modern intruments but uses them as decribed above for Jarvi/RCA to achieve a unique different sound than traditional large orchestras versions like new Vanska or Barenboim

[DarkAngel]

If you are still referring to new Jarvi/RCA being HIP.......my thinking is

It is not just using fleet lifted tempos, it is using smaller scale orchestra and more transparent clarified tones in playing style which reveal hidden neuances and melodies that are obscured in the larger thicker sounds of polished traditional large band performances.

Hybrid HIP today often uses modern intruments but uses them as decribed above for Jarvi/RCA to achieve a unique different sound than traditional large orchestras versions like new Vanska or Barenboim

The first real "hybrid" HIP set which took all the good ideas from original instrument movement and used modern intruments was the 1991 Harnoncourt/Teldec where he used fleet tempos and scaled down size orchestra of COE (chamber orchestra of Europe) the textures were more transparent with less vibrato etc revealing many obscured details, many have followed and improved upon this basic direction

[prémont]

It is not just using fleet lifted tempos, it is using smaller scale orchestra and more transparent clarified tones in playing style which reveal hidden neuances and melodies that are obscured in the larger thicker sounds of polished traditional large band performances.

So how do you think Jaervi compares to f.i. Zinman and MacKerras, not to mention Harnoncourt and Dausgaard?

[DarkAngel]

So how do you think Jaervi compares to f.i. Zinman and MacKerras, not to mention Harnoncourt and Dausgaard?

My absolute favorite set cost no object is the Dausgaard/Simax with Chamber Orchestra of Sweden, but extremely expensive spread out over 10 CDs with limited availability.......not really a practical recommendation unless a reduced priced boxset is released someday.

As someone else said here Dausgaard is so fresh and imaginative that you often feel like you are hearing these warhorses again for the very first time, excellent sound quality and the very best of hybrid HIP performance as I have described in several posts above, if I could keep only 1 set this is it

The Zinman/Arte Nova and Harnoncourt/Teldec are similar performances and offer many unique features I prefer over your classic full size modern orchestra, quite exciting when first released but even more true to my Hybrid HIP ideals are Jarvi/RCA and MacKerras/Hyperion which dig a little deeper and sound more authentic, hear more imaginative touches in these performances......MacKerras uses Philharmonia Orchestra for 9th which is a negative for me, I would have preferred SCO.

The Immerseel/Zig Zag is very good but a few of the symphonies sound too relaxed in tempo for my taste, has many positive qualities but overall a mixed bag for me 

[Marc]

So how do you think Jaervi compares to f.i. Zinman and MacKerras, not to mention Harnoncourt and Dausgaard?

So, conductors like Järvi sr. and Georg Solti already used very swift tempi, combined with energetic playing.
Both talked very condescending about HIP.

Bernard Haitink did a 2nd Beethoven with the Concertgebouw (slightly HIP-influenced) and a 3rd with the London SO (more HIP-influenced).
He still grumbles sometimes about thos HIP-lads who ruined his Amsterdam career.

Is Haitink more or less HIP(-influenced) than Paavo Järvi?

I think Paavo Järvi, from what I've heard of him so far, is both influenced by his anti-HIP father's swift conducting and by the modern more historic approach towards classical compositions.
But he's definitely less 'strict' HIP [I begin to hate this word] than f.i. Zinman and Mackerras, IMHO.

[prémont]

I think Paavo Järvi, from what I've heard of him so far, is both influenced by his anti-HIP father's swift conducting and by the modern more historic approach towards classical compositions.

Two diametrical opposites!!

But he's definitely less 'strict' HIP [I begin to hate this word] than f.i. Zinman and Mackerras, IMHO.

Yes, I am also beginning to hate this word, - it isn´t but an insufficiently defined relative concept.

[prémont]

My absolute favorite set cost no object is the Dausgaard/Simax with Chamber Orchestra of Sweden, but extremely expensive .......not really a practical recommendation unless a reduced priced boxset is released someday.

Yes it is a bit too expensive, and my thought, when I asked you above, was if I could save some money by skipping Järvi.  I already own Harnoncourt, Zinman and both MacKerras`, and your answer has not convinced me that Järvi is mandatory. Rather I should save up for Dausgaard.

[George]

Jens interesting that your favorite Beethoven performances include "both" new Pavo Jarvi and new Vanska, Barenboim since for me they are yin/yang.......opposing views

That's what makes it so impactful. 

[jlaurson]

That's what makes it so impactful. 

Notes to self:

1.) Track down, torture, then kill George.
2.) Convince premont that P.Jaervi is indeed mandatory.
3.) Milk.

[Bunny]

Yes it is a bit too expensive, and my thought, when I asked you above, was if I could save some money by skipping Järvi.  I already own Harnoncourt, Zinman and both MacKerras`, and your answer has not convinced me that Järvi is mandatory. Rather I should save up for Dausgaard.

If you don't mind compression, the Dausgaard cycle is available both from Itunes and Amazon.  I think the Jarvi cycle is also available for download.  Why don't you sample a few tracks and see how you like them?

I don't have the Jarvi, but I have and love the Dausgaard cycle.  I imagine that I will be acquiring the Jarvi cycle as soon as it's in a box set, which I hope is very soon.  Btw, Dausgaard also has the 4 of the piano concertos (Boris Berezovsky) and triple concerto and romances out as part of the series.  The 5th piano concerto and violin concerto must also be in the works.

[Bunny]

Notes to self:

1.) Track down, torture, then kill George.
2.) Convince premont that P.Jaervi is indeed mandatory.
3.) Milk.

Skim or regular?

[Marc]

I think Paavo Järvi, from what I've heard of him so far, is both influenced by his anti-HIP father's swift conducting and by the modern more historic approach towards classical compositions.

Two diametrical opposites!!

Yep.
BUT: I did mention it on purpose. Because this paradox might lead to interesting performances!

[prémont]

Yep.
BUT: I did mention it on purpose. Because this paradox might lead to interesting performances!

Interesting maybe, but mandatory?

[Que]

So, HIP Beethoven is now so hip that anyone who plays fast with a smallish orchestra on modern instruments can be called HIP... Never mind how orchestras in Beethoven's time were layed out, the kind of instruments that were played and how it all was supposed to sound...

Now Toscaninni is mentioned in these pages! Well, Furtwängler played fast, after some slowing down... 

Q

[Clever Hans]

I think Zinman is a bit superficial, and regardless, wouldn't compare him to Harnoncourt, whose set has so many layers/dimensions.

Mackerras on hyperion, which I only recently acquired, is also more complex, and so far the recordings seem to me to have great dexterity, feeling of occasion, and spirited humanity (as has been noted by many listeners). Harnoncourt, my favorite cycle, has more struggle and brooding, which is, I suppose, another side of Beethoven.

I do really like what I have of Jarvi, however, for his vigor and unrestrained approach. I think he sounds very modern, but kind of HIP in that he wants to deliver the score unadulterated and without romantic additions, and maybe achieve the impact (but not the sound) of the originals in their time--idealized, of course.

I am interested in the Dausgaard, but I only really want the symphonies. 

[prémont]

2.) Convince premont that P.Jaervi is indeed mandatory.

Considering the number of my LvB symphony sets - some time ago I acquired even the mandatory  Barenboim set  -  a new set has got to be exceptional,  if I am going to get it. I hear some posters say the Dausgaard set is exceptional, but the Järvi set, does it offer something quite new compared to MacKerras, Zinmann and Harnoncourt?

[Bunny]

So, HIP Beethoven is now so hip that anyone who plays fast with a smallish orchestra on modern instruments can be called HIP... Never mind how orchestras in Beethoven's time were layed out, the kind of instruments that were played and how it all was supposed to sound...

Now Toscaninni is mentioned in these pages! Well, Furtwängler played fast, after some slowing down... 

Q

Que, it all depends on whether you use the acronym HIP as Historically Informed Performance or Historic Instrument Performance. 

As far as historically informed performance goes, it would be hard to find something that has not been influenced by the historic scholarship.  And Toscanini's recordings are more than a half century away from us, and have become historic documents.  It becomes increasingly difficult to separate these matters.  I think perhaps we need a thread entitled Historic INSTRUMENT Performance for the strictest of the Hipsters. 

[Marc]

Interesting maybe, but mandatory?

Mandatory?
That's not for me to decide.

Following Bulldog Don, I used the word essential in another thread (Bach's organ works).

Mind you: essential or mandatory isn't the same as favourite. So: if a person would like to know the history of classical music, Wagner's music is essential.
If a person would like to know the development of Beethoven interpretation, some HIP-performances are mandatory.
But this list might be very short.

Personally, I do not have a good enough survey to give such qualifications, when Beethoven symphonies are concerned.
But of the (semi-)HIP performers, I certainly would mention Harnoncourt, Brüggen and Van Immerseel.
Personally, I liked Zinman, but I doubt if he's essential.

Come to think of it: maybe Zinman is essential, because his integral eventually became part of a bargain Beethoven Very Large Box Set, and therefore reached a lot of Beethoven listeners and influenced their reception of and their view at this music.

[prémont]

I think Zinman is a bit superficial, and regardless, wouldn't compare him to Harnoncourt, whose set has so many layers/dimensions.

Quite agree.

I do really like what I have of Jarvi, however, for his vigor and unrestrained approach. I think he sounds very modern, but kind of HIP in that he wants to deliver the score unadulterated and without romantic additions, and maybe achieve the impact (but not the sound) of the originals in their time--idealized, of course.

This is in my opinion also true of MacKerras, and also in principle of Klemperer(!) and Kletzki(!) and others. Has Järvi really something new to offer?