Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[PerfectWagnerite]

The No1 Beethoven Superfan in the world does not give bad advice about Beethoven. Ignore the negative comments above about the Hanover Band recordings of the Beethoven symphonies. Check out real reviews elsewhere which are on the whole very positive indeed. Not perfect interpretation thoughout (eg the first movment of the Eroica is about 2 minutes too long). But still eminently listenable. For teh best Eroica to date look to Jordi Savall's recording..

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sinfonia-Symphony-Coriolan-Overture/dp/B000003IHX/ref=sr_1_3/104-3977417-1495913?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183651231&sr=1-3

This is a bit off topic but for a HIP ensemble the Goodman/Hanover combo sometimes make decisions that make you question their scholarship. It's been a while since I have heard their Beethoven so I am not going to try to recollect any moments but last night I was listening to their Schumann 4th and they skipped the exposition repeat in the opening movement ! Now even "old school" conductors like Klemperer and Bernstein take that repeat. How do you claim to be "HI" and not take that repeat makes you scratch your head.

[Iago]

I believe HIP should stand for "Horribly Irritating Performances". They're utter trash recorded only for the sake of being "different". And appealing only to those with emotionless souls.

I'm very happy with Toscanini, Karajan, Furtwaengler, Walter and Kleiber, leading the NYP, NBC, BPO, VPO, etal.

If Beethoven himself is capable of hearing any of those so called HIP performances, I'm sure he's turning over in his grave.

[Don]

I'm not sure what is wrong with the Nimbus label, they horribly record solo instruments too, if a piano CD I heard a while ago is typical. Vocal is better, fortunately.

I have many Nimbus piano recordings where I find the sound quality excellent, although I have to admit that majority opinion is along the lines expressed by Lethe.

[Rod Corkin]

This is a bit off topic but for a HIP ensemble the Goodman/Hanover combo sometimes make decisions that make you question their scholarship. It's been a while since I have heard their Beethoven so I am not going to try to recollect any moments but last night I was listening to their Schumann 4th and they skipped the exposition repeat in the opening movement ! Now even "old school" conductors like Klemperer and Bernstein take that repeat. How do you claim to be "HI" and not take that repeat makes you scratch your head.

I agree repeats should NEVER be skipped, but everything is there with their Beethoven as far as I can remember. I remember my old Karajan recordings when they were missed out everywhere.

[Lethevich]

I have many Nimbus piano recordings where I find the sound quality excellent, although I have to admit that majority opinion is along the lines expressed by Lethe.

I respect your opinions, so I won't automatically pass by any seemingly interesting Nimbus release without giving it a listen first, as it may find me more receptive to the appeal of their recorded sound.

Edit: that was a mouthfull...

[Rod Corkin]

I believe HIP should stand for "Horribly Irritating Performances". They're utter trash recorded only for the sake of being "different". And appealing only to those with emotionless souls.

I'm very happy with Toscanini, Karajan, Furtwaengler, Walter and Kleiber, leading the NYP, NBC, BPO, VPO, etal.

If Beethoven himself is capable of hearing any of those so called HIP performances, I'm sure he's turning over in his grave.

What are you talking about, whenever did Furtwaengler, to name but one , give a damn about Beethoven's tempo indications???

[JoshLilly]

If Beethoven were to hear his symphonies performed by modern orchestras on modern instruments, he'd boggle at how off and cloudy and mushy they sounded and - if he wanted them performed by such orchestras - he'd re-write the works entirely. What he wrote was not for modern orchestras, so when performed by them, certainly doesn't sound very much like what he wrote. Besides which, if he did intend it to sound the way, say, Furtwängler made them sound, then he was just a mediocre or even bad orchestrator. The sound and power of the orchestra overclouds many of the subtleties and hidden treasures that take place below the melody line. I listen to HIP performances of virtually any orchestral work by any composer, then a non-HIP, and I'm amazed at how much less stuff you can "get" with the modern performances.

With Beethoven this was the most drastic leap of all, at least for me. I listened to Gardiner's set and went from "these symphonies are very good I guess but I don't see what the big deal is" to passionately loving them.

My only warning would be concerning the Hanover Band: they're way too horny! Literally! I haven't heard this Beethoven set, I have to admit that up front, but I've never heard anything they did where the horns at mezzo-forté and louder didn't cloud over everything. I think the value of HIP comes from the increased clarity, but the Hanover Band doesn't sound clear to me at all because of their horns.

[karlhenning]

The No1 Beethoven Superfan in the world does not give bad advice about Beethoven.

Goodness, that really is the funniest thing I have ever read on the Internet.

No contest.

[Iago]

What are you talking about, whenever did Furtwaengler, to name but one , give a damn about Beethoven's tempo indications???

Slavish adherence to tempo indications often produces lifeless, limp wristed performances. For me that is true in most of the so called, "HIP" recordings.
I'll take the spirit of the music as evoked by Furtwaengler or Walter and the driving power provided by Karajan and Toscanini over the paralyzing slavish adherence to "tempo indications" as provided by Goodman. Gardiner or Harnoncourt. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!

[Greta]

Goodness, that really is the funniest thing I have ever read on the Internet.

No Karl, I think this wins:

My only warning would be concerning the Hanover Band: they're way too horny!

Post of the week! 

[Don]

We seem to be all over the place concerning what HIP means and what type of performances show Beethoven's symphonies in the best light.  Perhaps that's the way it should be.

What's been on my mind in recent years about HIP performances revolves around the use of period instruments.  I have noticed that an increasing number of period instrument recordings are HIP in name only and are really attempts to make the performances palatable to those who traditionally dislike HIP recordings - "HIP for those who hate HIP".

A good example of the above are the period instrument performances on Chandos of the Schumann Piano Quintet Op. 44 and the Piano Quartet Op. 47.  If interested, my review can be found on MusicWeb International.

[JoshLilly]

I'm very interested in this subject and would love to read your review. Would you mind passing a precise link to it, if you can get one? I did a bit of looking around the site and didn't seem able to find it (the site search is not so hot). It is musicweb.co.uk, right?

[FideLeo]

Really? You would think by Holst's time orchestral instruments are pretty much the same as today.

That "pretty much" needs to be interepreted with a generous grain of salt.  Hearing is believing! 

[FideLeo]

A good example of the above are the period instrument performances on Chandos of the Schumann Piano Quintet Op. 44 and the Piano Quartet Op. 47.  If interested, my review can be found on MusicWeb International.

No worries - the newer versions by Gaia Scienza (Winter&Winter) retain much of what I find invigorating about HIP as an approach to music.  I have the Chandos (Michelangelo Qt) version and find it a bit disappointing as well.  These performers simply have not rethought the music enough (in terms of period instruments and performing styles), even in comparison with the quite early AmonRa recording.

[Don]

I'm very interested in this subject and would love to read your review. Would you mind passing a precise link to it, if you can get one? I did a bit of looking around the site and didn't seem able to find it (the site search is not so hot). It is musicweb.co.uk, right?

I'm not worth a damn in giving precise links.  Anyways, go to www.musicweb-international.com/index/htm.  Then click on search.  Then type in schumann chandos - then it's the second item.

[JoshLilly]

I have located it! Haven't read it yet, but here's a link for others' convenience:
http://tinyurl.com/22usyb

EDIT: Just read it. Thanks for that! I think you've already convinced me to get the AmonRa CD. I checked it out on amazon.com right after reading your article: very tempting. Goes to show there are more factors to consider than just the instruments and performers.

[Lethevich]

That "pretty much" needs to be interepreted with a generous grain of salt.  Hearing is believing! 

Indeed, considering there have even been HIP RAVEL recordings...

[FideLeo]

Indeed, considering there have even been HIP RAVEL recordings...

HIP Debussy, HIP Rachmaninoff.  I heard these, too, and believed...

[Expresso]

That's the only true HIP Rachmaninoff record 

[Don]

I respect your opinions, so I won't automatically pass by any seemingly interesting Nimbus release without giving it a listen first, as it may find me more receptive to the appeal of their recorded sound.

If you get the opportunity, give a listen to the Nimbus disc of Scriabin's Op. 11 Preludes and Shostakovich Op. 34 Preludes played by Marta Deyanova (Nimbus 5026) - fantastic performances and soundstage.