Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[DavidRoss]

Although I posted it as a bargain - because many members do like Brüggen's Beethoven or are interested in getting it. I have mixed feelings about it myself: see previous comment HERE.

Thanks, Que.  This IS my favorite period Beethoven cycle--which makes it my favorite Beethoven cycle, period.  The 3rd was the first I heard from it, too, and based on that bought the whole set...and for a lot more than €15!  I have never regretted it and over time have come to enjoy it more and more.

In general I agree with your praise for Brüggen's 3rd through 8th symphonies.  As these comprise about 97% of my LVB symphony listening, that's all I need--though the 9th, as you said, is "serviceable" at the very least.  Your comment about wanting "more instrumental HIP colouring" puzzles me, as this is one of the things I prize about this set.  All the other period instrument cycles are disappointingly bland in this respect.  I'm also a bit surprised by your comment about section balances.  9 each 1st & 2nd violins comprise scarcely more than half the "normal" complement in traditional post-Romantic orchestras and this does enhance the orchestral texture and color in a way I find very satisfying--especially in comparison to the string-heavy mush typical of a certain conductor who shall remain nameless but whom many all but worship.

The comparison with Weil in the 6th surprises me a bit, too.  You said that Brüggen "achieves a very beautiful clear and softly edged orchestral sound, but in terms of tempi and phrasing it's quite ordinary"--yet Weil's tempi are mostly slower (but quicker in the slow movement) and his phrasing equally conventional.  (Not that there's anything weird about Brüggen's phrasing--nor should there be!)  I agree wholeheartedly about the superior recording quality of the recent Analekta disc, especially compared to the live performances in Brüggen's set from the early days of digital recording in the '80s, but the sound of the latter is perfectly adequate.  I agree that Weil's 5 & 6 are well-played and I look forward to hearing others if they continue the cycle, but to me they're much like Gardiner's, a bit too refined and genteel for my preferences.  

As for premont's comment calling Brüggen's cycle a "nice and harmless" Beethoven--I wonder if he wasn't listening to Gardiner's set by mistake...?  Anyway, thanks, Que, for calling this bargain to our attention.  Even though I already have it, I'm tempted to order a couple more while it's still available.  In a few years everybody will be raving about this cycle as an overlooked treasure and then those sets will be worth a pretty penny on the resale market!

[prémont]

As for premont's comment calling Brüggen's cycle a "nice and harmless" Beethoven--I wonder if he wasn't listening to Gardiner's set by mistake...?  

I agree with you, that Gardiners set is even worse in that respect, and this is why Gardiners set is the only period set of LvB´s Symphonies, that I have stayed away from. On the other hand, I doubt if you have heard the Hanover Band set or van Immerseel´s set. If you had, I think you would look at Brüggens set with other eyes.  Still the problem is, that some modern instrument and informed interpretations like Harnoncourt´s and Mackerras´ sets   -as to artistic statement-  by far surpass any period set, - IMO.

[DavidRoss]

I agree with you, that Gardiners set is even worse in that respect, and this is why Gardiners set is the only period set of LvB´s Symphonies, that I have stayed away from. On the other hand, I doubt if you have heard the Hanover Band set or van Immerseel´s set. If you had, I think you would look at Brüggens set with other eyes.  Still the problem is, that some modern instrument and informed interpretations like Harnoncourt´s and Mackerras´ sets   -as to artistic statement-  by far surpass any period set, - IMO.

"Even worse?"  It sounds as if you think I think (or should think) that Brüggen's is the best of a bad lot.  Not at all.  I think it's good.  Period.  No apologies needed.   My previous experience with Goodman was many years ago but didn't impress me favorably.  I might feel differently today.  I've not heard Immerseel's Beethoven and will keep my ears out for it.  I do like Harnoncourt's Beethoven but MacKerras's hasn't caught fire with me yet--though I am due for another try and do like his Mozart so there is hope for me yet. 

[George]

MacKerras's hasn't caught fire with me yet--

Nor with me, though due to the respect that set gets I plan to revisit as well at a later date.

[Harry]

I agree with you, that Gardiners set is even worse in that respect, and this is why Gardiners set is the only period set of LvB´s Symphonies, that I have stayed away from. On the other hand, I doubt if you have heard the Hanover Band set or van Immerseel´s set. If you had, I think you would look at Brüggens set with other eyes.  Still the problem is, that some modern instrument and informed interpretations like Harnoncourt´s and Mackerras´ sets   -as to artistic statement-  by far surpass any period set, - IMO.

What I do not understand is this hacking around on Gardiner.
I think his Beethoven marvelous, together with David Zinman's complete set.
The structural insight, Gardiner gives me, is not yet surpassed.

[prémont]

What I do not understand is this hacking around on Gardiner.
I think his Beethoven marvelous, together with David Zinman's complete set.
The structural insight, Gardiner gives me, is not yet surpassed.

Well, I admit, that I know Gardiners set the least of the period LvB symphony sets, since I do not own it, and only have heard excerpts from it. Except that I have owned his Choral - which is said to be the best of the set - but I departed with it. I find his style well structured, but polished and cold - much like Blomstedts LvB set. Having acquired Brüggens set, one of the recent purchases I regret the most, I do not want to repeat the flop, and so far I have got lots of recenly acquired non period LvB symphony sets to listen to (Kletzki, Walter, Jochum, Toscanini, Wand, Scherchen et.c.). 

[prémont]

It sounds as if you think I think (or should think) that Brüggen's is the best of a bad lot.  Not at all.  I think it's good.  Period.  No apologies needed. 

But what do you think about the Gardiner set?

[Marc]

What I do not understand is this hacking around on Gardiner.
I think his Beethoven marvelous, together with David Zinman's complete set.
The structural insight, Gardiner gives me, is not yet surpassed.

Hacking around on famous names can be very arousing, though.
Or maybe it's only a matter of taste?
Heard 'his' 5th some years ago; a friend owned the recording. Personally, I didn't like the recording sound that much. Rathing pounding, to my ears. I have two HIP-sets (as far as I remember, I'm on beer right now ): Norrington and Van Immerseel. There's more genuine music making to enjoy with the latter, IMO.

[DavidRoss]

But what do you think about the Gardiner set?

If I heard it cold I might not guess that it's supposed to be a HIP period instrument performance.  To me it seems tame--scrunchy period sonorities smoothed out, tempos fast but metronomic, over-reliance on heavy-footed dynamics for "drama."  It's well-played, of course, and well-recorded, but there's nothing to make me reach for it rather than any of a dozen or more similarly well-played but "safe" middle-of-the-road cycles.  By the way, I listened to the funeral march from Immerseel's 3rd on zig zag's site, and though it's very slow and stately, it's not ponderous, and the textures are rich--definitely interests me in hearing more.  

[prémont]

If I heard it cold I might not guess that it's supposed to be a HIP period instrument performance.  To me it seems tame--scrunchy period sonorities smoothed out, tempos fast but metronomic, over-reliance on heavy-footed dynamics for "drama."  

Cold, not in sound, but in expression, I meant.

[DavidRoss]

Cold, not in sound, but in expression, I meant.

Sorry, "hearing it cold" is an idiomatic expression by which I meant "had I not known what to expect."  Gardner doesn't seem cold to me in either respect.

[Brian]

Hacking around on famous names can be very arousing, though.
Or maybe it's only a matter of taste?
Heard 'his' 5th some years ago; a friend owned the recording. Personally, I didn't like the recording sound that much. Rathing pounding, to my ears. I have two HIP-sets (as far as I remember, I'm on beer right now ): Norrington and Van Immerseel. There's more genuine music making to enjoy with the latter, IMO.

Yeah, the first Norrington cycle is really off-putting.

(Count me as a big, big fan of Gardiner's Ninth, by the way, though my exploration of the rest of the cycle is incomplete.)

[Dancing Divertimentian]

What I do not understand is this hacking around on Gardiner.

Well, you like to 'hack around' on Wagner, yes?

[Brian]

Well, you like to 'hack around' on Wagner, yes?

Nice new username there, O'Richter Kidsamson.

[DavidRoss]

I agree with you, that Gardiners set is even worse in that respect, and this is why Gardiners set is the only period set of LvB´s Symphonies, that I have stayed away from. On the other hand, I doubt if you have heard the Hanover Band set or van Immerseel´s set. If you had, I think you would look at Brüggens set with other eyes.  Still the problem is, that some modern instrument and informed interpretations like Harnoncourt´s and Mackerras´ sets   -as to artistic statement-  by far surpass any period set, - IMO.

Through the miracle of modern technology, I've been able to listen to some substantial portions of Immerseel's cycle.  I think it's well recorded and I agree with you about the transparency due to not only recording quality but the balance of forces.  However, in the faster movements especially there's a tendency to driven, extreme tempos and overall I'm disappointed by the rhythmic inflexibility which to me is also one of the major flaws of Gardiner's cycle (vs. the rhythmic flexibility that I regard as one of the strengths of Brüggen's set).  Still I think it bears further exploration so I've added it to my wish list--thanks!

I also played a few selections from Mackerras's first cycle yesterday and rather liked them, though I'm not sure I'd consider them HIP.  I think it was M who suggested that some approaches should be called "Historically Aware Performance" to distinguish them from the "Historically Informed" approach which some regard as synonymous with "Period Performance Practice"  (and still others equate with "Period Instrument Performance!").  That would give us PPP, PIP, HIP, and HAP--sounds like a bunch of circus clowns, eh? 

[prémont]

I also played a few selections from Mackerras's first cycle yesterday and rather liked them, though I'm not sure I'd consider them HIP.  I think it was M who suggested that some approaches should be called "Historically Aware Performance" to distinguish them from the "Historically Informed" approach which some regard as synonymous with "Period Performance Practice"  (and still others equate with "Period Instrument Performance!").  That would give us PPP, PIP, HIP, and HAP--sounds like a bunch of circus clowns, eh? 

Circus clowns, yes, but on the other hand we would avoid a lot of misconceptions in this field, if these useful terms became generally accepted.

Concerning Immerseel´s LvB set it is very much the characteristics you mention, which make me like it. I am more in doubt whether I should acquire Gardiner´s set or not. Opinions are divided.

[Antoine Marchand]

MY recommendation = sales pitch
But Bruggen's Beethoven is really more than nice and harmless -- it has a grand orchestral sound and fairly broad concepts (admittedly not exactly my idea of period Beethoven).

I was very impressed when I heard it for the first time. I thought: "This is not von Karajan. Thanks, My Lord!"

IMO, it is the most Mozartean Beethoven's cycle in existence.

[FideLeo]

IMO, it is the most Mozartean Beethoven's cycle in existence.

Not Immerseel?  But then I have almost no idea of what you meant when you said "Mozartean Beethoven" 

[Sorin Eushayson]

...sounds like a bunch of circus clowns, eh? 

How did you figure out what I do during the day??? 

About Norrington's: I loved it.  Sure, he messed up the tempo in the Ninth, but other than that and a slightly forceless Fifth he nails'em!

About Immerseel's: I have that set.  It's worth getting for the Fifth alone.  Boy does he do a bang-up job on that!  The other symphonies in his cycle seemed consistently off-tempo to me.  I guess he could have been a little quicker in the last movement of the Fifth as well, but really it's such a magnificent performance there that you don't even notice.

[Valentino]

I like what I've heard of Norrington's first cycle (2, 7, , and I think I also wanted 5 from that cycle in M's Mystery Orchestra on that piece. I should get it just to hear what's so horribly wrong with that mach in 9. BTW Gardiner is waaay to fast in the same march. But I love that recording, even if he's hidden the trumpets under a blanket or something. Superb vocals.

Edit: I read through the whole thread again. Not a single mention of my latest favourite Eroica: Jordi Savall's. Sounds rather HIP too...