Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[DavidRoss]

[Immerseel's LvB symphonies] arrived today, and I put on the 5th symphony while I ate my lunch. I felt quite uncomfortable for the first few minutes - the way they race through that first movement is quite disconcerting, as if they all had a train to catch and catching it was a close-run thing. But by halfway through the movement I was starting to get into it; the excitement of it; the rawness of it, the vitality of it.

By halfway through I'd abandoned my lunch and was just listening. The exhilaration of it was utterly gripping; and the sound of the orchestra was captivating in a very curious way: none of that silky smoothness of massed modern strings that (I now realise) sucks the life out of the music by over-polishing, over-smoothing. I know it sounds silly to say this, but it sounds as if the instruments are having a good time. They seem to revel in the music they're individually producing - it reminds me of Ruskin's idea of vital beauty: 'felicitous fulfilment of purpose'.

If this is Beethoven, then quite simply - I've never heard Beethoven before. Listening to this 5th, today, is entirely and without qualification one of the most exciting roller-coaster musical experiences I've had for some time. Roll over, Chuck Berry. You never knew what it was really like.

Let me join Gurn in congratulatin you, Alan--and in thanking you for this post.  Those of us who love period instrument hip performances of baroque and classical music are always thrilled when another discovers how wonderful the music really is when not buried under Romantic excesses.  I've grown so accustomed to the rich sounds of period instruments and the exhilarating joie de vivre of contemporary "historically informed performance" that I can hardly stand to hear Mozart or Beethoven or Handel or Bach any other way.

I was recently introduced to the Immerseel set by fellow GMGers (earlier on this thread, methinks  ) and quickly became a fan...though my heart still belongs to Brüggen, the spiciest cycle I know.  jpc.de still has that set on sale for a mere €15.  

I know you're already a fan of Wm. Christie.  Keep an ear out for Rene Jacobs's splendid Mozart (& Handel) operas, Rachel Podger's Bach Sonatas & Partitas, Il Giardino Armonico's Brandenburgs, and so on.

Welcome to the dark (timbre) side!

[DavidW]

I just buy that Bruggen set DaveR, thanks for the link.

[George]

It arrived today, and I put on the 5th symphony while I ate my lunch. I felt quite uncomfortable for the first few minutes - the way they race through that first movement is quite disconcerting, as if they all had a train to catch and catching it was a close-run thing. But by halfway through the movement I was starting to get into it; the excitement of it; the rawness of it, the vitality of it.

Thanks for your post! It inspired me to sample the set over at itunes and I must say it sounds damn good! And I am not usually into HIP when it comes to Beethoven either. But that set sounds excellent and has an immediacy, a power and clarity I haven't heard before in Beethoven Symphonies. I agree about the speed too, at first I thought it was too fast (maybe I still think so in the Pastoral) but then the excitement generated convinced me. 

[MishaK]

I just got this:



And it's superb. Opening chords of the Eroica are perfect. Tempo is judged very well, with a nice dose of flexibility. Appropriately dark funeral march. Really outstanding clarinet playing throughout. Full review soon.

[SonicMan46]

Thanks for your post! It inspired me to sample the set over at itunes and I must say it sounds damn good! And I am not usually into HIP when it comes to Beethoven either. But that set sounds excellent and has an immediacy, a power and clarity I haven't heard before in Beethoven Symphonies. I agree about the speed too, at first I thought it was too fast (maybe I still think so in the Pastoral) but then the excitement generated convinced me. 

Hello George & others commenting on this Immerseel Beethoven Symphony Cycle, and to Elgarian for pushing me 'over the edge' - I've been eyeing this cycle for a while (now own 4 others, so do I need yet an additional one?), but as others have commented regarding 'historic' performances, I'm a HAPPY CAMPER - thus, put in an order today and plan to be thoroughly pleased!   

[Coopmv]

This set arrived midweek last week and I hope to give it a spin this weekend.  This is my second set of Beethoven Symphonies performed on period instruments (I bought the Hogwood's set a few years back).  I am not dogmatic and believe good performance of Beethoven Symphonies is possible on modern instruments as well.  Perhaps the set by Mackerras will be next ...  

[Gurn Blanston]

This set arrived midweek last week and I hope to give it a spin this weekend.  This is my second set of Beethoven Symphonies performed on period instruments (I bought the Hogwood's set a few years back).  I am not dogmatic and believe good performance of Beethoven Symphonies is possible on modern instruments as well.  Perhaps the set by Mackerras will be next ...  

Coop,
I (at least) am not saying otherwise. I have a dozen or so cycles in all, and among them there are some really nice performances that would hold their own with any.  However, I will say that since you DO like the music, you couldn't have made a better choice than Gardiner. As I mentioned earlier, the ORR is a big band, and they play so well (seriously, they play great) that the "learning curve" for people who like modern instruments is a lot less steep than you may have found it with Hogwood. That set is dramatically different. It is perfect for people like me who wallow in PI...

I will be amazed if you come back here next week and say that you couldn't abide Gardiner. The only thing you will need to get accustomed to is the tempi. They are brisk. Beethoven would have been very comfortable with them, I believe. People who were brought up with "modern" performance style will need a couple of listens.




----------------
Listening to:
Christoph Prégardien \ Andreas Staier - D 911 Song Cycle for Voice & Keyboard "Winterreise" Book 1 #06 - Wasserflut

[Coopmv]

Coop,
I (at least) am not saying otherwise. I have a dozen or so cycles in all, and among them there are some really nice performances that would hold their own with any.  However, I will say that since you DO like the music, you couldn't have made a better choice than Gardiner. As I mentioned earlier, the ORR is a big band, and they play so well (seriously, they play great) that the "learning curve" for people who like modern instruments is a lot less steep than you may have found it with Hogwood. That set is dramatically different. It is perfect for people like me who wallow in PI...

I will be amazed if you come back here next week and say that you couldn't abide Gardiner. The only thing you will need to get accustomed to is the tempi. They are brisk. Beethoven would have been very comfortable with them, I believe. People who were brought up with "modern" performance style will need a couple of listens.




----------------
Listening to:
Christoph Prégardien \ Andreas Staier - D 911 Song Cycle for Voice & Keyboard "Winterreise" Book 1 #06 - Wasserflut

This is actually the 17th or 18th Beethoven Symphonies cycles for me.  I also have every Karajan cycle - with the 63 cycle on both redbook CD and SACD and the 77 cycle on LP.  As for the Hogwood cycle, I think the 9th was a bit of a bust as the tempo in the last movement was chaotic IMO.  I think the Karajan EMI set of 1955 is excellent and can easily rival his 63 cycle with the 77 cycle being the weakest.  The Eugen Jochum 68 cycle with the RCO is also excellent.  I also find the 9th by Bernstein and the VPO (1980) quite an exhilarating performance.  The Harnoncourt cycle I got early this year also has an excellent 7th if I remember correctly after only one audition ...

[Coopmv]

At first, I read this as 'hirpies' (even though I know that is the incorrect spelling).    How about an in between, like Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?  Historially informed performance on modern instruments?  0:)

Yeah, this is an excellent performance.  I still have about 4 or 5 CD's (piano and violin concertos) to go before I am done with the set ...

[Gurn Blanston]

This is actually the 17th or 18th Beethoven Symphonies cycles for me.  I also have every Karajan cycle - with the 63 cycle on both redbook CD and SACD and the 77 cycle on LP.  As for the Hogwood cycle, I think the 9th was a bit of a bust as the tempo in the last movement was chaotic IMO.  I think the Karajan EMI set of 1955 is excellent and can easily rival his 63 cycle with the 77 cycle being the weakest.  The Eugen Jochum 68 cycle with the RCO is also excellent.  I also find the 9th by Bernstein and the VPO (1980) quite an exhilarating performance.  The Harnoncourt cycle I got early this year also has an excellent 7th if I remember correctly after only one audition ...

That's what I'm saying, you can always find good performances in modern cycles (I happen to think that the '55 Karajan is better than the '63). But anyway, the point is not how many you have, but whether any of them present the music in a way that grabs you and says "LISTEN TO ME!". If they do, then that's great. If not, they are a bust. Hogwood's 9th does have some unevenness. I felt that the Turkish section was unduly influenced by Norrington's major screwup from the previous year, OTOH, Hogwood does a nice job at the end of it holding back the (not written but usually played) accelerando that leads into the fugue. Of course, cycles have the downside that no one set of interpretations is going to be exactly right for every symphony. Which is why I have that big pile of single disks too, with such as Czech PO / Matacic doing Eroica. I have mixed emotions when it comes to box sets...



----------------
Listening to:
Christoph Prégardien \ Andreas Staier - D 911 Song Cycle for Voice & Keyboard "Winterreise" Book 2 #04 - Letzte Hoffnung

[Coopmv]

That's what I'm saying, you can always find good performances in modern cycles (I happen to think that the '55 Karajan is better than the '63). But anyway, the point is not how many you have, but whether any of them present the music in a way that grabs you and says "LISTEN TO ME!". If they do, then that's great. If not, they are a bust. Hogwood's 9th does have some unevenness. I felt that the Turkish section was unduly influenced by Norrington's major screwup from the previous year, OTOH, Hogwood does a nice job at the end of it holding back the (not written but usually played) accelerando that leads into the fugue. Of course, cycles have the downside that no one set of interpretations is going to be exactly right for every symphony. Which is why I have that big pile of single disks too, with such as Czech PO / Matacic doing Eroica. I have mixed emotions when it comes to box sets...



----------------
Listening to:
Christoph Prégardien \ Andreas Staier - D 911 Song Cycle for Voice & Keyboard "Winterreise" Book 2 #04 - Letzte Hoffnung

I hear you, though a box set does offer the following benefits.

1) You do not need to hunt down the individual CD's.
2) A box set almost always costs less than sum of the costs for the individual CD's.

The 2 obvious downsides are:

1) Often less than generous liner notes
2) Unattractive CD artworks

I bought the Karajan Symphony Edition in early spring, which I have yet to listen to.  The motive was clearly economical since I did not have all the Bruckner and Haydn Symphonies and the cost of building out my collection with these individual CD's would have been a lot more costly ...

[Gurn Blanston]

I hear you, though a box set does offer the following benefits.

1) You do not need to hunt down the individual CD's.
2) A box set almost always costs less than sum of the costs for the individual CD's.

Yes, these are precisely the reasons that I buy some of them. Particularly #2.

The 2 obvious downsides are:

1) Often less than generous liner notes
2) Unattractive CD artworks

Although for me, neither of those things makes a lot of difference. I have a ton of books about the music, and I don't really care that much about the performers (sorry about that   ). And I gave up on artwork when LP's went away (for all practical purposes). No, for me the downside, such as it is, is that most big sets are uneven in quality, so a lot of times I listen to about half of it avidly and the remainder not so much. OTOH, the cost factor is usually enough to justify only liking half of it...

I bought the Karajan Symphony Edition in early spring, which I have yet to listen to.  The motive was clearly economical since I did not have all the Bruckner and Haydn Symphonies and the cost of building out my collection with these individual CD's would have been a lot more costly ...

A good example of how a box can justify its existence. You would have hunted for a long time to pick up those OOP singles, and then the cost would have been as much or more as the box costs.





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Listening to:
Christophe Rousset & William Christie - G 076 #3 Quartet in Eb for 2 Harpsichords 1st mvmt - Allegro vivace

[Mozart]

Bruggen's Beethoven recordings are no turkey for me at all, and particularly the 7th and 8th are OUTSTANDING.  No idea why his approach to Beethoven was described as "baroque"-oriented.  Any detail to prove that? 

No turkey? Why don't I understand that phrase. I hope it means it's good so I can agree, I love Bruggen. The 6th 7th and 8th specially.

[Gurn Blanston]

No turkey? Why don't I understand that phrase. I hope it means it's good so I can agree, I love Bruggen. The 6th 7th and 8th specially.

Yes, you understand him perfectly.



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Listening to:
Christophe Rousset & William Christie - G 076 #5 Quartet in F for 2 Harpsichords 1st mvmt - Allegretto

[Mozart]

Yes, you understand him perfectly.



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Listening to:
Christophe Rousset & William Christie - G 076 #5 Quartet in F for 2 Harpsichords 1st mvmt - Allegretto

I guess turkey is dry and makes you go to sleep, so not having turkey is good? Someone should add to that phrase, its no turkey but chicken.

[Elgarian]

I know you're already a fan of Wm. Christie.  Keep an ear out for Rene Jacobs's splendid Mozart (& Handel) operas, Rachel Podger's Bach Sonatas & Partitas, Il Giardino Armonico's Brandenburgs, and so on.

Interesting, this. I dismissed Handel, along with pretty much the whole of baroque, somewhere back in the 1970s (of course I now know why), and never bothered with him or them again until recently. When I began my recent revisiting, I didn't even know that what I was listening to was 'historically informed'; I just plunged in, and Christie's brand of HIP baroque happened to be what I got, and the walls fell down. I suppose on the basis of that, I should have known there were other pieces of demolition work ahead, but I was too busy gawping at the wonders of the unexplored baroque landscape (still am) to think much about it.

I have about 3 decades of catching up to do.

[Que]

Interesting, this. I dismissed Handel, along with pretty much the whole of baroque, somewhere back in the 1970s (of course I now know why), and never bothered with him or them again until recently. When I began my recent revisiting, I didn't even know that what I was listening to was 'historically informed'; I just plunged in, and Christie's brand of HIP baroque happened to be what I got, and the walls fell down. I suppose on the basis of that, I should have known there were other pieces of demolition work ahead, but I was too busy gawping at the wonders of the unexplored baroque landscape (still am) to think much about it.

I have about 3 decades of catching up to do.

Besides the Baroque, HIP recordings really opened the door for me in all pre-Beethoven Classical period composers. Naturally Mozart & Haydn being the most prominent  - I never into them via other recordings, so revelatory is no too big a word. Another composer who does extremely well in HIP is ....Schubert.

Anyway, my LvB/Van Immerseel set is on it's way - can't wait!

Q

[DavidRoss]

I guess turkey is dry and makes you go to sleep, so not having turkey is good? Someone should add to that phrase, its no turkey but chicken.

In American slang, a "turkey" is someone or something that is stupid or incompetent--the opposite of Kuijken's Cosi or "Paris" Symphonies, for instance. 

[Elgarian]

Another composer who does extremely well in HIP is ....Schubert.

He'll have to wait his turn, but I believe you, and I've mentally registered that interesting statement for future reference..

[DavidW]

I have about 3 decades of catching up to do.

Well if you are going to explore Beethoven, let me rec my favorite work.  While Eric has his Debussy P&M, I have Beethoven's Archduke Trio!  It is magnificently sublime.