Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[jlaurson]

It sounds like he takes the Toscanini approach of impatiently waiting for the storm.  I don't care for storm-centric performances of the Pastoral symphony.  I want warmth and lyricism from this symphony and not a race to the punchline, because the storm is not the punchline of the symphony.

Totally agree David!  

For me, personally, the heart of this symphony lies in the 1st and 2nd movements.  I enjoy the entire symphony, but it's the first two movements that are the core for me.  

Indeed!

You guys must all love Barenboim's Pastorale then!?! There's no more honeyed or darkly varnished 6th I've heard. The highlight from one of my favorite cycles.

Admittedly, there couldn't be a cycle that is further removed from the HIP topic of this thread...

[DavidW]

Actually I do love Barenboim's 6th!   And in general his is IMO the best modern cycle. 0:)

[Brian]

You guys must all love Barenboim's Pastorale then!?! There's no more honeyed or darkly varnished 6th I've heard.

YES!

Barenboim's 6th is to die for. The HIPsters can't beat it  0:)

[Brian]

And in general his is IMO the best modern cycle. 0:)

Yes sir; I haven't listened to Dausgaard's Ninth yet, and have only heard some of Vanska, but each of them would have a whole lot of work to do to even vie for that title.  

[DavidW]

Yes sir; I haven't listened to Dausgaard's Ninth yet, and have only heard some of Vanska, but each of them would have a whole lot of work to do to even vie for that title.  

I have not heard Dausgaard, but found a Vanska a little dry.  As I'm typing this I'm listening to Norrington/Stuttgart on the ninth, and he has slowed down and not made a complete mess of things like in his previous cycle.  

[Brian]

I have not heard Dausgaard, but found a Vanska a little dry.  As I'm typing this I'm listening to Norrington/Stuttgart on the ninth, and he has slowed down and not made a complete mess of things like in his previous cycle.  

Ah, that's a good 'un. 

[Elgarian]

Took the lid off Immerseel's 7th yesterday, continuing my exploration of his Beethoven box. I was aware that it was unlikely it would make the instant impact of the 5th, and the jury stayed out for about four minutes, at which point the motorbike revved up and started to travel in earnest.

I've never enjoyed the 7th symphony anything like so much as this, and the last movement had me on my feet, conducting the imaginary orchestra through the garden window. He really knows how to use the drums, and how to make them heard almost tangibly, so that I almost laugh with the pleasure of hearing them, and throughout it feels like real people playing real instruments. I am now understanding that this is a major reason for my pleasure in these Immerseel performances - I have a sense of real people, real individuals, each making a contribution to the whole, but without losing their individual character. I feel that all my life I've been listening to Beethoven played by some kind of 'smoothing-out' music machine. If it had been possible for me to hear this kind of playing when I was sixteen, I think the development of my musical tastes might have been very different.

[Sergeant Rock]

I have not heard Dausgaard, but found a Vanska a little dry.  As I'm typing this I'm listening to Norrington/Stuttgart on the ninth, and he has slowed down and not made a complete mess of things like in his previous cycle.  

Although I hate to repeat myself I must occasionally, especially now that M is no longer here to provide expert advocacy of the Norrington/LCP performances. Norrington's Finale is the best I've ever heard, played exactly the way I think it should go. Of all the HIP Beethoven cycles, his is the one that makes the music sound most radical and new. No need to say more since it's been said elsewhere.

This message brought to you in the spirit of balance and fair play 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Took the lid off Immerseel's 7th yesterday, continuing my exploration of his Beethoven box. I was aware that it was unlikely it would make the instant impact of the 5th, and the jury stayed out for about four minutes, at which point the motorbike revved up and started to travel in earnest.

I've never enjoyed the 7th symphony anything like so much as this, and the last movement had me on my feet, conducting the imaginary orchestra through the garden window. He really knows how to use the drums, and how to make them heard almost tangibly, so that I almost laugh with the pleasure of hearing them, and throughout it feels like real people playing real instruments. I am now understanding that this is a major reason for my pleasure in these Immerseel performances - I have a sense of real people, real individuals, each making a contribution to the whole, but without losing their individual character. I feel that all my life I've been listening to Beethoven played by some kind of 'smoothing-out' music machine. If it had been possible for me to hear this kind of playing when I was sixteen, I think the development of my musical tastes might have been very different.

That's excellent. It's interesting to me how, after we become experienced listeners, we get the feeling that there can be nothing new under the sun, especially with music that wasn't written yesterday. And then when we DO hear something different under the sun, it always comes as such a great surprise! I love surprises...

[jlaurson]

Took the lid off Immerseel's 7th yesterday, continuing my exploration of his Beethoven box. I was aware that it was unlikely it would make the instant impact of the 5th, and the jury stayed out for about four minutes, at which point the motorbike revved up and started to travel in earnest.

I've never enjoyed the 7th symphony anything like so much as this, and the last movement had me on my feet, conducting the imaginary orchestra through the garden window. He really knows how to use the drums, and how to make them heard almost tangibly, so that I almost laugh with the pleasure of hearing them, and throughout it feels like real people playing real instruments. I am now understanding that this is a major reason for my pleasure in these Immerseel performances - I have a sense of real people, real individuals, each making a contribution to the whole, but without losing their individual character. I feel that all my life I've been listening to Beethoven played by some kind of 'smoothing-out' music machine. If it had been possible for me to hear this kind of playing when I was sixteen, I think the development of my musical tastes might have been very different.

Inspired by this, I put the Immerssel 7th in the player twice, this morning. Good stuff, indeed... although not quite doing for me--along the same lines of the effect this performance seems to have had on Elgerian--what, say, the 4th of Vanska or the 3rd of P.Jaervi have done for me. But so far I'm certainly more enamored with this cycle than Kletzki's, which is fine, too (apart from being TOTALLY different, of course), but a less "necessary" addition.

[Elgarian]

Well, I'm on a roll. Today I spent my lunchtime with the 6th, and was relieved to discover that I could enjoy the gentle pastorality of the second movement, as well as the rock&roll rumbustuousness of this new HIP Beethoven creature. I actually laughed out loud in the thunderstorm - in the same way as I might do if caught out in a sudden real thunderstorm - and nothing to do but laugh and give in to the rough and scary exhilaration of it.

Then later while making a meal I listened to the Eroica - and I only got as far as the end of the wonderful, wonderful slow movement, because at this point I was no longer doing anything except listen and stride about the kitchen conducting the pots and pans, and I had to switch it off, or get nothing done.

This Immerseel box is a revelation!

[DavidRoss]

It sounds like he takes the Toscanini approach of impatiently waiting for the storm.  I don't care for storm-centric performances of the Pastoral symphony.  I want warmth and lyricism from this symphony and not a race to the punchline, because the storm is not the punchline of the symphony.

Totally agree David! 

For me, personally, the heart of this symphony lies in the 1st and 2nd movements.  I enjoy the entire symphony, but it's the first two movements that are the core for me. 

Then you might like Immerseel/anima Eterna -- it's hardly a storm-centric Pastoral and I think they get it all right.   

[Rod Corkin]

Then you might like Immerseel/anima Eterna -- it's hardly a storm-centric Pastoral and I think they get it all right.    

Looking back at my comments from June last year at the 'pathetic forum' I wrote this Nr6 was off the pace and not particularly joyful. Another guy said it was one of the most disappointing renditions in the Immerseel set. Really this is at best an average collection. Both Norrington/LCP and the Hanover Band's recordings for Nr6 are much better. Gardiner's Nr6 is heavy and dull.

[Gurn Blanston]

Looking back at my comments from June last year at the 'pathetic forum' I wrote this Nr6 was off the pace and not particularly joyful. Another guy said it was one of the most disappointing renditions in the Immerseel set. Really this is at best an average collection. Both Norrington/LCP and the Hanover Band's recordings for Nr6 are much better. Gardiner's Nr6 is heavy and dull.

Rod,
That's as may be, but you are missing the entire point here. We are not having a competition to see which PI symphonies cycle is the greatest. We are actually sharing the joy of discovery of a set which he bought and is now listening to for the first time, with someone who hasn't heard a PI set before. And he is not disappointed, he is delighted, as he should be. Like you, I own every PI cycle, and if I wanted to, I could sit and compile a wonderful cycle that is the best of each. But I don't want to here and now, maybe later on we can recreate your thread and argue intensely about it.

[Rod Corkin]

But I don't want to here and now, maybe later on we can recreate your thread and argue intensely about it.

This is the thread to argue about it! But who is arguing in any case?? I merely presented the viewer with a counter assessment of Immerseel's Nr 6. If everyone has to bow to the lowest common denominator I will not waste any more of my time on this topic. I noticed when some of my recommendations earlier in the thread were casually written off you did nothing about it, nothing to them about creating a new topic for such arguments! Really if there is one consistant feature of GMG it is the double standards of the Moderators.

[Gurn Blanston]

This is the thread to argue about it! But who is arguing in any case?? I merely presented the viewer with a counter assessment of Immerseel's Nr 6. If everyone has to bow to the lowest common denominator I will not waste any more of my time on this topic. I noticed when some of my recommendations earlier in the thread were casually written off you did nothing about it, nothing to them about creating a new topic for such arguments! Really if there is one consistant feature of GMG it is the double standards of the Moderators.

Right:

Viewer: I really enjoy this symphony by X

Rod: Well, I (and my fellow forumites) have decided that version to be a total loser. You need to get Y or Z...

Viewer: Oh, sorry, I didn't realize I was such an effing idiot... 

You think that's an exaggeration, I'm sure, but that's how it comes off, and I don't like it. I don't need to be told how to moderate a forum, thank you for that though. A great majority of us like this one precisely how it is. If we didn't, we would be over playing in YOUR forum instead.

[Elgarian]

Then you might like Immerseel/anima Eterna -- it's hardly a storm-centric Pastoral and I think they get it all right.

This is bang on - it certainly isn't storm-centric. It's exciting when it comes, but it's in its place, and when it ends, despite the breathlessness, you feel grateful. No kidding!

[Elgarian]

Really this is at best an average collection.

There is of course a place for all tastes, and for a variety of opinions and responses. But if there is ever a time in my future when I come to regard this Immerseel set as 'at best an average collection', I shall be bitterly disappointed with myself; first, because it would demonstrate my ingratitude for the perception-changing insight that these performances have been giving me this last week. Secondly, and more importantly, because I would know that I've lost touch with that sense of vitality and essential humanity that lies at the core of all the greatest art; and without which, art becomes a sterile carcass to be picked over: mere critic-fodder.

[Que]

There is of course a place for all tastes, and for a variety of opinions and responses. But if there is ever a time in my future when I come to regard this Immerseel set as 'at best an average collection', I shall be bitterly disappointed with myself; first, because it would demonstrate my ingratitude for the perception-changing insight that these performances have been giving me this last week. Secondly, and more importantly, because I would know that I've lost touch with that sense of vitality and essential humanity that lies at the core of all the greatest art; and without which, art becomes a sterile carcass: mere critic-fodder.

Hats off!

Q

[DavidW]

Then you might like Immerseel/anima Eterna -- it's hardly a storm-centric Pastoral and I think they get it all right.   

Well someone has given me the opportunity to become acquainted with these recordings, and wonderfully enough #6 is next up (yes I've been OCD listening in numerical order! ) when I return back to it (probably tomorrow).