Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Florestan]

First of all, I am in total agreement with your last sentence.

Well, great minds etc.

Second, related to what you call a "period mindset", I looked at an interview with Jarvi regarding his recent Beethoven cycyle and he said something that made a lot of sense to me: his goal was to perform the symphonies as if he had not heard Brahms, Mahler, or any of the music that came after Beethoven. 

That's exactly my point: no matter how hard he would try to do that, he can't!

There's a great BBC movie: "Eroica --- The Day that Changed The Music Forever", which tells the story of the first performance of the Beethoven's 3rd Symphony, in the private concert hall of prince Lobkowitz. (The musicians of the orchestra are played by the members of the Orchestre revolutionnaire et romantique in person). There is a character in the movie played excellently by Tim Piggot-Smith, one von Dietrichstein --- a Viennese nobleman, a typical representative of his caste: not a bad man per se (he turns out to be a very knowledgeable music lover) but full of prejudices, including musical ones (when told by Lobkowitz he'd hear something very exciting, he replies: Haydn?). Well, during the performance of Eroica he runs the whole range of emotions, from initial surprise and shock to being deeply impressed and literally having all his musical firm convictions shattered to the ground. Now, that is a response to this music that in all honesty none of us is able to replicate genuinely. For him, Eroica was indeed revolutionary to the point of bidding farewell to Classical era as a whole and ushering in something "quite new!" as another character of the movie, Joseph Haydn no less, tells the audience. For us, all this excitement is lost. We can be deeply moved by the music, but for us, children of modernity, genuinely revolutionary and new it is not...

[knight66]

Florestan, I agree that we cannot un-hear all that came afterwards. I found that film tremendously exciting, I loved the performance Gardiner drew from the orchestra. It did open my ears and I caught the edge of that revolution in a way I had not before. It did sound new and fresh, despite me have been steeped in what came afterwards.

Mike

[Antoine Marchand]

There is a character in the movie played excellently by Tim Piggot-Smith, one von Dietrichstein --- a Viennese nobleman, a typical representative of his caste: not a bad man per se (he turns out to be a very knowledgeable music lover) but full of prejudices, including musical ones (when told by Lobkowitz he'd hear something very exciting, he replies: Haydn[/i]?).

I'm sorry, but I really like this guy.   

[Clever Hans]

OK Hans, well, I was also in Rattle's very first attempt at the Beethoven 9th. He used modern instruments and I watched him ask for various 'older' practices. However, for one, we did nothing about altering the pitch, so the singers were still right at the top of their range. The sounds were light textured, the speeds quite fleet, but it was not a HIP performance in any meaningful way and all that apart, it was quite dull.

Mike

That's interesting. But what about more thorough--in that sense--conductors who use modern instruments and sometimes mix in period style and valveless trumpets, etc? Do you have an opinion on Harnoncourt's Beethoven, for example?

[knight66]

I don't know those performances. As someone has suggested, it is a spectrum and I know Mackerras uses a lot of practices, but modern instruments. I like his work a great deal, so I am not trying to make out there is only one way to do this. I also love Toscanini....but really may main point is that I cannot see how HIP might embrace the use of modern instruments. I can't quite see the point of using a modern band with one or two old instruments, or hard timp sticks.

That was the point I was making when I referenced the Bach St M.

Mike

[Florestan]

Florestan, I agree that we cannot un-hear all that came afterwards. I found that film tremendously exciting, I loved the performance Gardiner drew from the orchestra. It did open my ears and I caught the edge of that revolution in a way I had not before. It did sound new and fresh, despite me have been steeped in what came afterwards.

Well, I had the same feeling: it was new and fresh for sure --- but, and this is the crux of the matter, new and fresh as compared to a whole tradition of performing Eroica in the last century. But I asked myself: was it new and fresh as if I heard it for the very, very first time in my life and furthermore, as if I heard it before anything that came after it? The answer of course was a resounding "No!".

I'm sorry, but I really like this guy.   

I don't dislike him either. He might appear as a bad boy at first sight, but actually he's not.

[Clever Hans]

I don't know those performances. As someone has suggested, it is a spectrum and I know Mackerras uses a lot of practices, but modern instruments. I like his work a great deal, so I am not trying to make out there is only one way to do this. I also love Toscanini....but really may main point is that I cannot see how HIP might embrace the use of modern instruments. I can't quite see the point of using a modern band with one or two old instruments, or hard timp sticks.

That was the point I was making when I referenced the Bach St M.

Mike

Ah, I think I understand what you're saying.

[Bunny]

This is such a good thread the way it is.  Why not just amend the title to read, "Beethoven Symphonies HIP and Others"?  That way we can keep the discussion going about the symphonies without trying to figure out just which recordings fit in.

[jlaurson]

As Mike says, you are, in fact, urged to start one. Just please don't call it "non-HIP Beethoven Symphonies".

As for the suggestion by another that there could be a PI thread on Beethoven symphonies, please consider that there aren't more than half a dozen cycles out there and a few singles, so it would of necessity be a rather short one, eh?

Wait... so we are splitting an interesting thread into two boring ones... because some people can't stop making inane comments about either HIP or non-HIP "intrusion" into their purified world? That's segregation (at best it's "separate but equal") that I won't stand for.  Minus the bickering (which for a while I really thought was just done for comedic effect), this has been an extraordinary fun thread.

[knight66]

Bunny, That sounds like perfect sense to me; but as a Johnny come lately to the thread, I had better see how many don't like the idea before I act.

Mike

[George]

This is such a good thread the way it is.  Why not just amend the title to read, "Beethoven Symphonies HIP and Others"?  That way we can keep the discussion going about the symphonies without trying to figure out just which recordings fit in.

Or simply "Beethoven Symphonies."

[Antoine Marchand]

This is such a good thread the way it is.  Why not just amend the title to read, "Beethoven Symphonies HIP and Others"?  That way we can keep the discussion going about the symphonies without trying to figure out just which recordings fit in.

That solution has the beauty of the simple things, Bunny. 

If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change (Il Gattopardo).

[Renfield]

I think an issue to consider is that some people really might want to only discuss the HIP-HIP (see my post above) Beethoven, which certainly is more than worth discussing on its own; and presently isn't being discussed in this thread, at all.

In that case, I could certainly see a point for not alternating between two different discussions, one just about HIP-HIP, and one about everything around HIP, including examples of other approaches as opposed to it.

The latter being a very interesting topic for discussion, of course; but maybe also on its own. Exciting as this thread might be, there's a question to be asked on whether it fulfills its purpose. As well as what that purpose is.

[knight66]

Hey Eugene! If people discuss the music and performance, as against the thread itself, I think things will take care of themselves. I for one will not be drawn into an abstruse, philosophical discussion of the meaning of the thread.

You probably have a lot more years in front of you than I do.

Anyway, as pointed out. People are at liberty to start a thread on any sub-sub section of the topic, but I for one won't be splitting it up any time soon. But renaming may be on the cards.

Mike

[DavidW]

You probably have a lot more years in front of you than I do.

Everytime Mike reads a thread like this, a hair on his head turns gray!

[knight66]

That makes all seven of them gray now.

Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

Everytime Mike reads a thread like this, a hair on his head turns gray!

Or an angel gets its wings...  0:)

Well, Master Renfield has spoken my piece for me. If there is a big push to take over the Beethoven symphony thread and crown Toscanini as the new progenitor of HIP, then by all means, if Jens can stand for it, then go ahead. Meanwhile, the PIon's  will likely be elsewhere, clearly HIP is no longer ours.

[DavidW]

That makes all seven of them gray now.

Mike

Doh!



Well it can't go anymore downhill from there.

[Renfield]

Hey Eugene! If people discuss the music and performance, as against the thread itself, I think things will take care of themselves. I for one will not be drawn into an abstruse, philosophical discussion of the meaning of the thread.

You probably have a lot more years in front of you than I do.

Anyway, as pointed out. People are at liberty to start a thread on any sub-sub section of the topic, but I for one won't be splitting it up any time soon. But renaming may be on the cards.

Mike

Hey Mike.

I never said it's necessarily worth pursuing the semantics. Just that they might be an issue!

That is a philosopher's trick I have already learnt, towards making the most of the years ahead, however many they turn out to be.


More seriously, my main concern was/is that broadening the discussion too much in this thread might be stepping on the toes of people who really only want to discuss HIP. Maybe they might be secured a thread of their own, topic-wise?

(In which case it feels counter-productive that a new thread be started for that, when there's already a HIP-related thread right here. Though obviously, ceteris paribus, I'm all for a general Beethoven thread .)


Edit: That said, 'Beethoven for PIons' is a great name for a thread.

[Bunny]

I've just noticed that i don't have any HIP Beethoven symphonies 
Which ones should i try? Harnoncourt, Zinman, Norrington or someone else?

I'm not interested solely on box sets, i might pick single CD's from many conductors.

Or an angel gets its wings...  0:)

Well, Master Renfield has spoken my piece for me. If there is a big push to take over the Beethoven symphony thread and crown Toscanini as the new progenitor of HIP, then by all means, if Jens can stand for it, then go ahead. Meanwhile, the PIon's  will likely be elsewhere, clearly HIP is no longer ours.

If you look at the OP's first post, you will see that it never was supposed to be an exclusively HIP = Historic Instrument Performance thread.  Had Zinman and Harnoncourt not been cited in the opening post it would have developed in a much different manner.  And yes, I do think that we also need a thread that only covers period performance as it is done today.  (Until Stewie's time machine is operable, we can never do more than hope that we can approximate a historic performance.)