Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Valentino]

A very good read, M. You write wisely.

As already stated I very much enjoy Gardiners remake of the third. From the olden days I enjoy a couple of Norrington disks and I also own a Brüggen turkey, nos. 4 & 6, where 6 is not too bad. From the Harnoncourt cycle i have 1 & 3. I like this Eroica very much. That's what I own of HIP LvB, using M's definition of HIP.

[FideLeo]

Bruggen's Beethoven recordings are no turkey for me at all, and particularly the 7th and 8th are OUTSTANDING.  No idea why his approach to Beethoven was described as "baroque"-oriented.  Any detail to prove that? 

[Expresso]

Very interesting replies! Even though the main point wasn't to determine what is and what is not historically informed 

I'll probably buy symphonies from various conductors, even though i always have a preference on Harnocourt. Not because he is more HIP than others, but because he always has something new or different to say with each one of his works.

[Bunny]

I've just noticed that i don't have any HIP Beethoven symphonies 
Which ones should i try? Harnoncourt, Zinman, Norrington or someone else?

I'm not interested solely on box sets, i might pick single CD's from many conductors.

First of all, Zinman's Beethoven is not HIP.  It's modern instrument big band Beethoven, but it was the first cycle to use the newer Barenreiter editions of the scores.  The tempos are fast and Zinman got great transparency from his orchestra, but it is not HIP Beethoven.  It's not even hybrid because of the number of instruments per part.

Harnoncourt's Beethoven cycle with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe is not HIP either.  Again, it's influenced by historically informed practices, but it's a modern instrument chamber orchestra.  It's simlar to the Thomas Fey Beethoven symphonies (Symphonies 4&6 and 1&2 - not a complete cycle) or Thomas Dausgaard's ongoing cycle with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra Orebro because again, it's a smaller ensemble using faster tempos.  Note: Both Fey and Dausgaard use the Barenreiter editions.  Those were not available when Harnoncourt recorded his cycle.  I also believe that Harnoncourt may have used some period instruments in certain passages, but without checking in the liner notes I can't really say this with any degree of reliability.

Here are the HIP cycles (performances on period instruments informed by the scholarship on period performance) that I am familiar with:

Roger Norrington and the London Classical Players:  the first, but the least of the cycles.  I tend to avoid this as it's just not well done.  At that time Norrington was not a great Beethoven conductor -- or at least he didn't do the symphonies very well.  His later cycle with a modern orchestra is much, much better.

Christopher Hogwood and the Academy of Ancient Music: this is a fine cycle, very straight forward with crisp tempos.  It has really worn well.  It is very well textured with great transparency.  I would put it right on the transition between the classical and romantic traditions, taking a little of each school.  I think it's probably due for reevaluation, and will probably benefit from the reexamination.

Frans Brüggen and the Orchestra of the 18th Century: Excellent cycle, but  more classical in feel than romantic.  Brüggen's orchestra uses less vibrato than Hogwood's or Gardiner's, but it's one of the most interesting cycles around.  This is the one that really has that "period" feel.

Sir John Eliot Gardiner and the Orchestre Romantique et Revolutionnaire: This is the cycle that sounds most like modern orchestra Beethoven.  It's firmly into the more romantic camp but still has enough of the classical lightness of texture to remind everyone of just what tradition Beethoven grew out of.  If you are new to HIP Beethoven, then this might be the best option because it's very grand Beethoven

There are also some individual performances that are HIP of individual symphonies -- Jordi Savall has recorded the 3rd Symphony (Eroica) with Le Concerts des Nations for instance and Bruno Weil and Tafelmusik Orchestra have recently recorded Symphonies 4 &5.  Also, Jos van Immerseel is in the process of recording a complete cycle with the Anima Eterna Orchestra which is scheduled for release in 2008.

[Bunny]

Very interesting replies! Even though the main point wasn't to determine what is and what is not historically informed 

I'll probably buy symphonies from various conductors, even though i always have a preference on Harnocourt. Not because he is more HIP than others, but because he always has something new or different to say with each one of his works.

I love Harnoncourt, and this is probably going to be greeted as heresy, but I don't really care for Harnoncourt's Beethoven. In some places (most notably the Pastoral) he plays with tempo to an alarming degree.  While the early symphonies are very good, his Beethoven just doesn't appeal to me.  I've tried to analyze exactly why I am unsatisfied by his Beethoven performance, but I've never really been able to put my finger on it.  I don't like his piano concertos with Laurent Aimard either.  I much prefer Harnoncourt for Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, and even Dvorák and Bruckner.  His Beethoven just is not as good as his other work.

[M forever]

I love Harnoncourt, and this is probably going to be greeted as heresy, but I don't really care for Harnoncourt's Beethoven. In some places (most notably the Pastoral) he plays with tempo to an alarming degree.  While the early symphonies are very good, his Beethoven just doesn't appeal to me.  I've tried to analyze exactly why I am unsatisfied by his Beethoven performance, but I've never really been able to put my finger on it.

Fortunately, I can help you with the answer: You simply don't get what he is trying to do here. That's not a problem at all. It's not "heresy" either. It's just you. And obviously, you, like the rest of us, are completely entitled to get or not get and like or not to like whatever you want. And we also appreciate that you share your personal preferences with us. To which you are also entitled. I know that's very important.

However, all that doesn't have much to do with the actual subject. You obviously don't understand at all what the whole "HIP" thing is really about ("obviously", because you illustrate that in great detail in the longer post above).

This kind of uninformed, superficial and clichéed nonsense about that subject is basically what I ranted about extensively on the previous page. Except that it may have looked out of place then since I didn't reply to anything anyone in particular had said. You have really nicely summed up what I had in mind though. Thanks for providing the context for my post.

[Rod Corkin]

I've just noticed that i don't have any HIP Beethoven symphonies 
Which ones should i try? Harnoncourt, Zinman, Norrington or someone else?

I'm not interested solely on box sets, i might pick single CD's from many conductors.

Zinmann does not use period instruments unfortunately. You can buy the complete symphonies by Norrington and also the Hanover band set for next to nothing these days. I advise you get both, you can't lose. Gardiners was something of a let down and costs significantly more.

[Shrunk]

M,

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by "rhetorically inflected phrasing" in your long post?

I should mention I have the Norrington/LCP set, almost by accident.  I was just looking for a cycle for my kids to play, and I wanted a cheap one so I wouldn't mind if they trashed it.  Instead, I've spent a lot of time listening to it myself.  I enjoy the energy and sense of surprise in these performances.

[Greta]

M, your long post, wow. It's those kind of reads that make me glad you are back.

"HIP" is something I need to become much more "HI" about. I agree that it is more complex than just what instruments you use. You can come at HIP from several angles, not necessarily old instruments.

I enjoyed the Norrington clip very much. I like controversial. But definitely not a first HIP!

Hogwood sounds excellent, and I would love to hear Mackerras, but then again, I didn't know he was even considered "HIP" for Beethoven?  Anyway, I rarely have found anything of his that is not interesting and conducted with sparkle and attention.

Harnoncourt, my only experience with him so far is in some of the London symphonies, I'm still coming to terms with him. Gorgeous, provocative, there is so much nuance there, it makes repeated listening very enjoyable. And the Concertgebouw, far from a HIP orchestra, but stylistically what he does is unique from anything I've heard. He feels rooted in the music and the time it comes from, but we have to remember Haydn (and Beethoven) had some "attitude", and it's definitely gutsy, and even defiant, in places. But he definitely has his own very specific views and somehow he is able to blend and reconcile those two things in a fascinating way.

What looks like so many systematic black and white 16th and 8th notes on a page in this kind of music becomes imbued with a vast array of colors and shades. He really makes the dialogue that is so important between the sections of the orchestra "speak". Even within one line of several bars, there is a great deal of insight going on. The musicality is just incredible. But some people don't get him.   Someone once told me he thought his Haydn was too "serious". But Harnoncourt goes for much more than effervescent soda-pop Haydn. He's more like, a fine wine.

[Lethevich]

I also appreciate the massive post

I should mention I have the Norrington/LCP set, almost by accident.  I was just looking for a cycle for my kids to play, and I wanted a cheap one so I wouldn't mind if they trashed it.  Instead, I've spent a lot of time listening to it myself.  I enjoy the energy and sense of surprise in these performances.

It's fun indeed... I also picked it up due to the low price and after imprinting on that cycle, I then heard Klemperer's stereo one (which I bought deliberately for a different approach). And, damn, I knew that Klemperer was slow - and looking back, his tempi wasn't ridiculously slow - but it took a long time for me to come around to it being played in that way (the opening notes of the 5th are worlds apart in both cycles).

This IMO proves that Norrington's tempi (and therefore Beethoven's metronome markings) are not unpaletable or "wrong" at all. I probably had as much of a hard time appreciating Klemperer's Beethoven as many people had appreciating Norrington.

Btw, it's sad to see the Hanover Band being dissed in an earlier post Their Haydn on Hyperion's Helios label really is brilliant.

[Rod Corkin]

I also appreciate the massive post

It's fun indeed... I also picked it up due to the low price and after imprinting on that cycle, I then heard Klemperer's stereo one (which I bought deliberately for a different approach). And, damn, I knew that Klemperer was slow - and looking back, his tempi wasn't ridiculously slow - but it took a long time for me to come around to it being played in that way (the opening notes of the 5th are worlds apart in both cycles).

This IMO proves that Norrington's tempi (and therefore Beethoven's metronome markings) are not unpaletable or "wrong" at all. I probably had as much of a hard time appreciating Klemperer's Beethoven as many people had appreciating Norrington.

Btw, it's sad to see the Hanover Band being dissed in an earlier post Their Haydn on Hyperion's Helios label really is brilliant.

I discussed the Hanover Band and Norrington earlier today.  A general notice -  buy the Hanover Band set and you will not regret it, especially if you can find the set which also includes the Missa Solemnis and overtures all at a bargain price. I am the world's No1 Period Instrument Beethoven fanatic and I never tire of these disks.

[karlhenning]

A general notice -  buy the Hanover Band set and you will not regret it

A general notice - what I've heard of the Hanover Band makes it one of the most forgettable ensembles I've ever heard.

[PerfectWagnerite]

A general notice - what I've heard of the Hanover Band makes it one of the most forgettable ensembles I've ever heard.

Their(Hanover Band) Beethoven and Schubert are really done in by the horribly dim and cavernous sonics that Nimbus served them. And no, you don't need sophisticated equipment to tell that sound is horrendous. Sounds like a tape of high school graduation. If you want to hear them at their best you can do so in their Schumann symphonies set.

[Bunny]

Fortunately, I can help you with the answer: You simply don't get what he is trying to do here. That's not a problem at all. It's not "heresy" either. It's just you. And obviously, you, like the rest of us, are completely entitled to get or not get and like or not to like whatever you want. And we also appreciate that you share your personal preferences with us. To which you are also entitled. I know that's very important.

However, all that doesn't have much to do with the actual subject. You obviously don't understand at all what the whole "HIP" thing is really about ("obviously", because you illustrate that in great detail in the longer post above).

This kind of uninformed, superficial and clichéed nonsense about that subject is basically what I ranted about extensively on the previous page. Except that it may have looked out of place then since I didn't reply to anything anyone in particular had said. You have really nicely summed up what I had in mind though. Thanks for providing the context for my post.

I actually think I do get what he's trying to do. I just don't enjoy it. It doesn't illuminate Beethoven's creative process for me as much as Harnoncourt's incisive, analytical, musical thought process.  I find Harnoncourt's cycle far less interesting than Dausgaard's, which for me is the best modern instrument chamber ensemble Beethoven cycle around.  That's exciting, refreshing Beethoven.  Harnoncourt's cycle is weighty, and for lack of a better word, pedantic -- he's trying hard to make a point, but the music isn't flowing "trippingly" from the instruments.  Rather than feeling as if the music is speaking to me naturally, I feel as if I'm being lectured from the podium by the music (perhaps that's what you mean by rhetorically inflected phrasing?).  To me it sounds calculated, and it leaves me cold -- almost like your nasty little post up there in the quote box.  For Haydn, such an approach lends weight and dignitas.  For Mozart, it adds character and humanity to the almost inhumanly beautiful sound.  That approach, however, makes me feel that something has been taken away from the music of Beethoven; a stirring, emotional connection is just not there.  Insulting my intellect with words like "superficial" and "uninformed" isn't going to change my mind, or make me want to revisit it to see if perhaps I will feel differently.  If that is what you would like, then perhaps you should have given a great explanation why I should listen again, and what I should look for.  If you had only stirred my curiosity about it, you might  have accomplished more.  Insulting my intellect just creates a feeling of intransigence.

Btw, I understand what HIP is about.  But you  have to distinguish between true period performance (Historic Instrument Performance) and and what is often miscalled HIP (Historically Informed Practice).  So, there!  

[Bunny]

Their(Hanover Band) Beethoven and Schubert are really done in by the horribly dim and cavernous sonics that Nimbus served them. And no, you don't need sophisticated equipment to tell that sound is horrendous. Sounds like a tape of high school graduation. If you want to hear them at their best you can do so in their Schumann symphonies set.

I had forgotten about Roy Goodman and the Hannover Band -- most probably because the s/q is really awful for the early recordings.  Thankfully, their later recordings have benefited from improved sonics. 

[PerfectWagnerite]

I had forgotten about Roy Goodman and the Hannover Band -- most probably because the s/q is really awful for the early recordings.  Thankfully, their later recordings have benefited from improved sonics. 

I forgot to mention that the Schumann set is on RCA (mercifully) and they employ REAL engineers and not high school apprentices.

[Greta]

Seems there's some division here over the Hanover Band...

I coincidentally have been in search of Goodman's HIP Holst Planets (on historical instruments), impossible to find. I don't particularly care if it's good or terrible, I think I've read it wasn't, I'm just very curious to hear the darn thing.

[Lethevich]

I'm not sure what is wrong with the Nimbus label, they horribly record solo instruments too, if a piano CD I heard a while ago is typical. Vocal is better, fortunately.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Seems there's some division here over the Hanover Band...

I coincidentally have been in search of Goodman's HIP Holst Planets (on historical instruments), impossible to find. I don't particularly care if it's good or terrible, I think I've read it wasn't, I'm just very curious to hear the darn thing.

Really? You would think by Holst's time orchestral instruments are pretty much the same as today.

[Rod Corkin]

The No1 Beethoven Superfan in the world does not give bad advice about Beethoven. Ignore the negative comments above about the Hanover Band recordings of the Beethoven symphonies. Check out real reviews elsewhere which are on the whole very positive indeed. Not perfect interpretation thoughout (eg the first movment of the Eroica is about 2 minutes too long). But still eminently listenable. For teh best Eroica to date look to Jordi Savall's recording..

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sinfonia-Symphony-Coriolan-Overture/dp/B000003IHX/ref=sr_1_3/104-3977417-1495913?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183651231&sr=1-3