The price of CDs these days

[Todd]

...I think he still buys music himself...

In terms of CDs, basically just box sets and the occasional LvB sonata cycle from foreign markets.  Maybe an odd collectible.  In terms of downloads, I buy 'em cheap with some regularity.

Also, I don't buy DVDs or BDs.  Or whale oil.

[Madiel]

he is just pointing out that cd consumption here is far higher than it is in the general populace

Which, with respect, is not a relevant point to the discussion unless one is trying to negate the value of the discussion.

A discussion that is happening on a forum where CD consumption is higher than usual. Seems the best place for the discussion, then.

Much as I'd expect a higher rate of discussion about Buffy the Vampire Slayer on a Sarah Michelle Gellar fan forum than I would on the rest of the internet. Imagine if someone on such a forum popped up to say "no one watches Buffy anymore".

A specialist forum inherently has a skewed view of which topics are of interest compared to the general populace. That's the damn purpose of it. Telling us that we're not like other people ignores how/why we ended up here in the first place. When people who know me from other contexts comment on me still buying CDs or just on me listening to classical music, well, they're reflecting the general populace. But when someone who themselves presents as part of the unusual minority keeps telling us all how weird or quaint he thinks we are, that habit is itself weird.

[Brian]

Which, with respect, is not a relevant point to the discussion unless one is trying to negate the value of the discussion.

I thought the discussion was about the economics of CDs - who if anyone buys them, and how they should be priced. Maybe "we can't use ourselves as a guide" doesn't answer the question but it's relevant, surely.

It's been a long time now and I can't remember the details but I once talked to a Naxos booklet writer who said that it was fairly common for a CD to sell a few hundred copies worldwide, total, ever, and that if you sold 150 in a week that was good enough to get on bestseller charts. I bet Paul from Presto could enlighten us a bit here. It makes sense that, if the artist/label can expect to make pennies for streaming fees over an album's lifetime, they'd want to bill the CD shoppers more. Especially with physical distribution being one of the steepest, most expensive hurdles (as Warner's box sets keep proving).

Talking to artists locally in the Dallas area, recording an album has become such a passion project - requiring finding donors and grant funding, carving out the time for unpaid labor, etc. - that it's more like a capstone to your legacy than a normal part of a working career. I say all that, but actually I'm full of questions about the economics of the business. Like, if recording is so onerous and difficult and expensive, how do all these super-obscure artists keep producing dozens of records per month on labels like MSR, Centaur, and Genuin? Is anyone in the business making money besides Naxos and Universal? How much money does the label save by selling a download vs. a physical CD?

[Madiel]

I thought the discussion was about the economics of CDs - who if anyone buys them, and how they should be priced. Maybe "we can't use ourselves as a guide" doesn't answer the question but it's relevant, surely.

It's been a long time now and I can't remember the details but I once talked to a Naxos booklet writer who said that it was fairly common for a CD to sell a few hundred copies worldwide, total, ever, and that if you sold 150 in a week that was good enough to get on bestseller charts. I bet Paul from Presto could enlighten us a bit here. It makes sense that, if the artist/label can expect to make pennies for streaming fees over an album's lifetime, they'd want to bill the CD shoppers more. Especially with physical distribution being one of the steepest, most expensive hurdles (as Warner's box sets keep proving).

Talking to artists locally in the Dallas area, recording an album has become such a passion project - requiring finding donors and grant funding, carving out the time for unpaid labor, etc. - that it's more like a capstone to your legacy than a normal part of a working career. I say all that, but actually I'm full of questions about the economics of the business. Like, if recording is so onerous and difficult and expensive, how do all these super-obscure artists keep producing dozens of records per month on labels like MSR, Centaur, and Genuin? Is anyone in the business making money besides Naxos and Universal? How much money does the label save by selling a download vs. a physical CD?

This is certainly germane to the discussion. One of the arguments I've seen a few times is that physical discs are now inherently a premium product, and that they'll be priced accordingly (though I personally still think the prices we are talking about are pretty darn cheap for a thing that can last many decades), and that the quality of the presentation is a key differentiation.

I still maintain the view, though, that coming in with the assertion that nobody buys discs is basically saying "who gives a fuck what they cost, it's irrelevant" in the very place that people were considering the cost relevant. I'm well aware that most of my friends have no interest in knowing the cost of CDs. But the people here? They had an interest. That's how the conversation started.

[Todd]

Like, if recording is so onerous and difficult and expensive, how do all these super-obscure artists keep producing dozens of records per month on labels like MSR, Centaur, and Genuin?

Vanity and self-promotion.

Is anyone in the business making money besides Naxos and Universal?

Does UMG make money on its classical division?  I'd love to see business line P&Ls.

How much money does the label save by selling a download vs. a physical CD?

There is no additional production cost for downloads, and distribution cost would be minimal (storage and computation costs if outsourced to AWS or Azure; some type of operational cost, and depreciation, if files are stored in-house).  I suspect margins are better for downloads, but I could be wrong.

[Brian]

This is certainly germane to the discussion. One of the arguments I've seen a few times is that physical discs are now inherently a premium product, and that they'll be priced accordingly (though I personally still think the prices we are talking about are pretty darn cheap for a thing that can last many decades), and that the quality of the presentation is a key differentiation.

I agree with this. I was also just thinking about the price difference of what I consider to be a premium physical product (new BIS albums, with their "ecopak," detailed booklets, paper sleeves, and inner artwork) and the price difference that arises just from physical distribution across the planet ($20 Amazon US, $22 ArkivMusic, versus $15.25 from Presto, often dropping below $11 on sale).

[Florestan]

Vanity and self-promotion.

Well, I know of no greater vanity than that of obscure Japanese or Korean pianists who record complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas that nobody buys.      

[Todd]

Well, I know of no greater vanity than that of obscure Japanese or Korean pianists who record complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas that nobody buys.     

Most of the cycles are on major or established labels.  Many of the artists are more popular in their home markets, in so far as classical musicians are popular anywhere.  There is more than a little cultural chauvinism in your post.

[DavidW]

It's been a long time now and I can't remember the details but I once talked to a Naxos booklet writer who said that it was fairly common for a CD to sell a few hundred copies worldwide, total, ever, and that if you sold 150 in a week that was good enough to get on bestseller charts.

That would explain why streaming is taking over record labels revenue stream despite paying out only peanuts.

[Madiel]

It's worth noting that different countries have different cultural attitudes to this/are changing at different rates. I'm sure the situation has changed further given how long it's been (fixing that this year), but on my last trip to Europe it was noticeable how physical product had almost completely disappeared in Denmark but could still be found a bit in Germany. It wasn't exactly abundant in the latter, but there was a definite difference. I'm not just talking about the classical niche, finding pop CDs in Danish stores was extremely unlikely. I kept finding vinyl without a CD section.

Here in Australia I can still rely on one retailer to have a decent amount of pop music to buy (the classical section is pretty sad though hey, that famous Australian Eloquence series will be there).

[Roy Bland]

That would explain why streaming is taking over record labels revenue stream despite paying out only peanuts.

IMHO a solution could be a print on demand service with a limited number of copies paid for in advance if successful they would need to be reissued.

[Bachtoven]

Umm...are there any new recordings to post?

[DavidW]

IMHO a solution could be a print on demand service with a limited number of copies paid for in advance if successful they would need to be reissued.

Arkiv used to do that!  They called them Arkiv cds!

[DavidW]

Umm...are there any new recordings to post?

Tomorrow morning me or one of my colleagues will probably just move this digression to another thread, and we will be back on track!