Unpopular Opinions

[Ken B]

Lol...

I always suspected you were a closet Boulezian John.

[(poco) Sforzando]

(Takes well-deserved bow.)

[Madiel]

Opinions are like least favourite 20th-century composers: everybody's got one.

[Mirror Image]

I always suspected you were a closet Boulezian John.

I actually like some of John Adams music but I'm not a big fan of Minimalism in general.

[EigenUser]

I actually like some of John Adams music but I'm not a big fan of Minimalism in general.

I'm pretty much the same way, though I do really like Steve Reich. I've seen some interviews with Reich and he seems incredibly full of himself and over-confident, but still a cool guy . Feldman is a sort-of (pre) minimalist and is one of my favorite composers, though. I like some Nyman (MGV isn't the most interesting of pieces, but it is very exciting for me), but I could live without it. That's about it.

I suspect that over time you will end up appreciating Boulez a little more (in the same vein that I suspect that I'll come to appreciate more Schoenberg, which is already happening). It's odd that Boulez clicked for me before Schoenberg (not to mention Webern clicking before Schoenberg!).

[EigenUser]

I would have said Ligeti & Stockhausen instead of Boulez & Carter .. but all of them are light years ahead of "Reich, Adams, and Co."

I suspect the same. And with time I feel you will appreciate Stockhausen's music more.

*RUNS AWAY SCREAMING*

Seriously, though, you are probably right. It is impossible for anyone to tell exactly what they might want to listen to in five years, ten years, etc.

[Madiel]

The fact that someone labels something as "art" and talks in high-faluting nonsense about it does not automatically make it any good. cf A thread doing the rounds at the moment about elitism.

[Fagotterdämmerung]

   
    Pop music ( used in the very broadest sense, rather than the narrow spectrum of dance music that people often use "pop" for ) is far superior to minimalism in delivering highly repetitive, simplistic music artfully.

    There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined. This does not diminish the latter category in the least, but I feel if all works had existed by themselves, divorced from a name and reputation, what we listen to today would be entirely different.

   The first half of the baroque is so much more interesting than the 1700-1750 portion.

   The 12-tone system was very arbitrary, but the Second Viennese managed great music in it anyway. Seriously, Schoenberg could have gone "No, wait, I've decided my guiding principle will be this magic 8 ball and only composing while trampolining," and he still would have put out great stuff. ( I list this as unpopular as people generally go "12-tone music is garbage" or embrace the technique and its results with enthusiasm ... I think it's arbitrary, but any music mind with an arbitrary restriction placed on it should still be able to make something good. )

[DaveF]

     There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined.

Now that is an interesting opinion - but you're gonna have to give some examples...

[Ken B]

   
    Pop music ( used in the very broadest sense, rather than the narrow spectrum of dance music that people often use "pop" for ) is far superior to minimalism in delivering highly repetitive, simplistic music artfully.

    There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined. This does not diminish the latter category in the least, but I feel if all works had existed by themselves, divorced from a name and reputation, what we listen to today would be entirely different.

   The first half of the baroque is so much more interesting than the 1700-1750 portion.

   The 12-tone system was very arbitrary, but the Second Viennese managed great music in it anyway. Seriously, Schoenberg could have gone "No, wait, I've decided my guiding principle will be this magic 8 ball and only composing while trampolining," and he still would have put out great stuff. ( I list this as unpopular as people generally go "12-tone music is garbage" or embrace the technique and its results with enthusiasm ... I think it's arbitrary, but any music mind with an arbitrary restriction placed on it should still be able to make something good. )

Since minimalist music isn't simplistic this is like saying vodka is better at delivering a buzz than orange juice is.

[Jo498]

    There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined. This does not diminish the latter category in the least, but I feel if all works had existed by themselves, divorced from a name and reputation, what we listen to today would be entirely different.

How do you believe the music and the composers got their reputation in the first place? Why did Count Waldstein write that the young Beethoven should receive Mozart's spirit from the hands of Haydn, not Kraus' or Joh. Chr. Bach's spirit from Albrechtsberger? Less than 20 years later with Hoffmann's writing on Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, the "classical trio" was already in place. What is the mechanism for generating such reputation if not the music?

[Fagotterdämmerung]

How do you believe the music and the composers got their reputation in the first place? Why did Count Waldstein write that the young Beethoven should receive Mozart's spirit from the hands of Haydn, not Kraus' or Joh. Chr. Bach's spirit from Albrechtsberger? Less than 20 years later with Hoffmann's writing on Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, the "classical trio" was already in place. What is the mechanism for generating such reputation if not the music?

Obviously music plays a part in generating a musician's reputation ( as do friends, fans, the taste of a given era, level of self-promotion, etc. )

As I said originally, the presence of talented but less-famous composers is not a detraction from the big names, it's simply than there is a lot more quality music written by the second tier because there is simply more of them.

[Ken B]

The Empire Strikes Back sucks.

[Brian]

The Empire Strikes Back sucks.

I JUST listened to a podcast on this subject! Here, feel validated by major critics agreeing with you.

[Ken B]

I JUST listened to a podcast on this subject! Here, feel validated by major critics agreeing with you.

Oh Brian. It is they who should feel vindicated! 

[Fagotterdämmerung]

The Empire Strikes Back sucks.

It failed to address so many loose ends in the plot brought up by the Star Wars Holiday Special. I mean, what happens to Bea Arthur's Bar? Why isn't anyone singing anymore?  0:)

[Jo498]

As I said originally, the presence of talented but less-famous composers is not a detraction from the big names, it's simply than there is a lot more quality music written by the second tier because there is simply more of them.

I can probably agree with that. There is a lot of music, far less known which is almost as good as the really famous stuff.
So it's not fair that even the least of Beethoven's piano sonatas (probably one of op.49) is better known than ANY Clementi sonata. One could probably make the case that there are a bunch of Clementi sonatas that are better/more interesting than these Beethoven sonatinas. On the other hand, I have heard a handful or two of Clementi sonatas and other early Beethoven like op.2/3 or 10/3 is far more impressive than any Clementi I have encountered. So there is also a sense in which it is justified than even earlier or "lesser" Beethoven is regarded highly.
And as there is only a finite amount of music I can listen to, I have to draw the line somewhere...

[eoghan]

Apart from the Grosse Fuge, all most* string quartets until Bartok sound dull, dull, dull

*need to give myself a get-out clause

[Jo498]

Compared to op.133 even most after Bartok sound dull...

[Ken B]

Compared to Kim Basinger most of the women at the local mall seem less attractive.