Unpopular Opinions

Started by The Six, November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM

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Symphonic Addict

What is interesting about Messiaen is the titles of his works or movements, not the music in itself.

Just found out he wrote an opera, almost 4 hours long. Holy sh...  >:D
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

Florestan

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 23, 2022, 09:56:09 AM
What is interesting about Messiaen is the titles of his works or movements, not the music in itself.

Just found out he wrote an opera, almost 4 hours long. Holy sh... >:D

An amateur., honestly There is this guy who wrote several operas which, though not exactly four-hour long, sound as they are six-hour long and some of which must be performed on four consecutive nights.  ;D
There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2022, 10:31:49 AM
An amateur., honestly There is this guy who wrote several operas which, though not exactly four-hour long, sound as they are six-hour long and some of which must be performed on four consecutive nights;D

My ears must be burning.  ::) :D
"You cannot expect the Form before the Idea, for they will come into being together." - Arnold Schönberg

Symphonic Addict

Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2022, 10:31:49 AM
An amateur., honestly There is this guy who wrote several operas which, though not exactly four-hour long, sound as they are six-hour long and some of which must be performed on four consecutive nights.  ;D

Even if the operas by the guy you're invoking lasted more than 4 hours each, I'd be very happy listening to them instead of the Messiaen.  ;)
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

Florestan

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 23, 2022, 11:43:27 AM
Even if the operas by the guy you're invoking lasted more than 4 hours each, I'd be very happy listening to them instead of the Messiaen.  ;)

I'll have belcanto over both, thank you.  :D
There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

pjme

The scenes with The angel are magical though...and I look forward to any new production of Saint François over any Traviata or Butterfly or Rheingold.

https://www.youtube.com/v/FJyTAnRg-NQ





Roy Bland


Florestan

There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

Symphonic Addict

Beethoven's String Quartet No. 13 must be interpreted with the revised 6th movement (Finale: Allegro), not with the Grosse Fuge.
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

LKB

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 25, 2024, 04:10:28 PMBeethoven's String Quartet No. 13 must be interpreted with the revised 6th movement (Finale: Allegro), not with the Grosse Fuge.

Personally, I would not be uncomfortable with this. The revised movement is perfectly fine, and I generally listen to the ( hugely impressive and entertaining ) Grosse Fugue in isolation anyway.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

Karl Henning

Quote from: LKB on May 25, 2024, 05:36:12 PMPersonally, I would not be uncomfortable with this. The revised movement is perfectly fine, and I generally listen to the ( hugely impressive and entertaining ) Grosse Fugue in isolation anyway.
Agreed.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Symphonic Addict

#3051
Quote from: LKB on May 25, 2024, 05:36:12 PMPersonally, I would not be uncomfortable with this. The revised movement is perfectly fine, and I generally listen to the ( hugely impressive and entertaining ) Grosse Fugue in isolation anyway.

Yes, me too. The 'problem' to me concerns live concerts and recordings that don't include the revised movement. The recording of the Quatuor Ébène and a live concert I attended before the pandemic featuring the Cuarteto Casals, omitted it.
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

Madiel

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 25, 2024, 06:06:52 PMYes, me too. The 'problem' to me concerns live concerts and recordings that don't include the revised movement. The recording of the Quatuor Ébène and a live concert I attended before the pandemic featuring the Cuarteto Casals, omitted it.

I think in an actual concert it's necessary to choose one or the other. But I think I might be on record even in this thread as favouring the revised finale.
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Jo498

I think a concert has to make a decision and a decision pro fugue is a legitimate choice.
I can live with being given the choice on recordings and usually expect both pieces to be included, preferably on the same disc, but at least in a complete (late) quartet recording. (I have two with fugue only, the Hagen/DG and a 1990s live recording with the Juilliard (but they included the alternate in their 1960s recordings)
But I can also understand the point that was made a few years ago her that one would have to play the whole piece differently depending on the finale choice.

It's interesting how composer's "original intention" vs. "final decision" is handled. Bruckner is a can of worms here but in the case of Beethoven I believe op.130/133 is the only situation where an original vs. revised/published version is commonly preferred. I have never heard of a performance of the Waldstein sonata with the andante favori instead of the introduzione, and while there are performances and recordings of the earlier versions of Fidelio, they are rare curiosities.


Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Spotted Horses

#3054
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 25, 2024, 04:10:28 PMBeethoven's String Quartet No. 13 must be interpreted with the revised 6th movement (Finale: Allegro), not with the Grosse Fuge.

Your opinion is popular with me. I was particularly enraged when I realized that the Artemis set did not include the finale of the Op 130 Quartet at all! I didn't realize the Ebene did the same thing. I can't argue with people who might find the Grosse Fugue a more satisfying end to the quartet, but the finale of Op 130 is a brilliant piece and the last string quartet movement that Beethoven completed before his death. (And I don't believe the argument that Beethoven was bullied into replacing the finale of Op 130. He was a stubborn SOB, writing for another age. He must have come to agree that the Grosse Fuge should be an independent piece.)
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Karl Henning

Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 26, 2024, 09:49:46 AMAnd I don't believe the argument that Beethoven was bullied into replacing the finale of Op 130. He was a stubborn SOB,
Right?! Who bullies Beethoven?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

LKB

Quote from: Karl Henning on May 26, 2024, 12:56:13 PMRight?! Who bullies Beethoven?

The man? Nobody I've read or heard of.

His music? Opinions vary...
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...