Author Topic: Unpopular Opinions  (Read 266501 times)

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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1980 on: June 22, 2017, 03:57:36 AM »
I agree with this completely. Late Romanticism is good though, you got Schreker and R. Strauss and Elgar and Schoenberg and Mahler, all of whose late Romantic works I think are remarkable. Early Romanticism has none of that but there are still some great pieces by Schumann, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Weber etc............everything, I guess, is a product of its time. Wagner being the height of Romanticism, naturally. :D

The height of Romantic opera, a hybrid form, but not of music proper — echoing Hanslick to make sure the opinion is unpopular enough. :)

Offline Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1981 on: June 22, 2017, 05:46:32 AM »
Another opinion which may be more popular than you think  8)

Many True [believers]will deny this in their blind zealotry, but it is possible to find merit in [some of] [his] work without feeling that he is The Supremousest Genius of Western Music.

Now it fits Schoenberg and Webern too.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1982 on: June 22, 2017, 05:50:55 AM »
Now it fits Schoenberg and Webern too.

Perhaps I have been spared, but I have not known any enthusiasts for Schoenberg or Webern (well, not known personally . . . I suppose certain Darmstadtlings qualify) to match the Bayreuth Brigade.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1983 on: June 22, 2017, 06:02:59 AM »
Of course, it helps the later composers that, where Wagner was an insecure narcissist (getting a lot of that on TV these days) convinced that he was leading humanity to The Musical Future, Schoenberg did not insist that anyone else write music as he did.  He was sure that what he was doing was musically right;  and I am an enthusiast to the degree of saying that I have not heard a note of Schoenberg’s which I did not like . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1984 on: June 22, 2017, 07:15:57 AM »
The height of Romantic opera, a hybrid form, but not of music proper — echoing Hanslick to make sure the opinion is unpopular enough. :)

Plus: Romanticism did not have one single height; it had many, and some of them were quite early, for instance Winterreise, A Midsummer's Night Dream Overture, Symphonie Fantastique, Carnaval.
“Melody is the essence of music.”  --- Mozart

Offline ritter

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1985 on: June 22, 2017, 07:37:14 AM »
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

His mature works are the pinncale of romanticsm, but at the same time trascend that artistic movement to open the gates of modernity in the arts.

If I don't say it, I explode!  ;D
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1986 on: June 22, 2017, 07:42:27 AM »
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

Well, that is an unpopular opinion!  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline ritter

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1987 on: June 22, 2017, 07:50:01 AM »
Well, that is an unpopular opinion!  8)
That's what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas;)
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Parsifal

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1988 on: June 22, 2017, 08:04:17 AM »
That's what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas;)

What is this, a Poirot novel?

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1989 on: June 22, 2017, 08:42:51 AM »
That's what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas;)

Bien sûr!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

kishnevi

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1990 on: June 22, 2017, 08:44:47 AM »
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

His mature works are the pinncale of romanticsm, but at the same time trascend that artistic movement to open the gates of modernity in the arts.

If I don't say it, I explode!  ;D

Wagner is both underrated and overrated.  He's been hyped for the wrong things and passed over for some of the important things he achieved.  He has abig reputation but reputation is for the wrong things.
What is this, a Poirot novel?

Contrary opinions often spur use of the little grey cells.


Offline ritter

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1991 on: June 22, 2017, 08:48:25 AM »
Wagner is both underrated and overrated.  He's been hyped for the wrong things and passed over for some of the important things he achieved.  He has abig reputation but reputation is for the wrong things.
Very nicely put, mon cher.
ritter
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1992 on: June 22, 2017, 09:12:23 AM »
Jeffrey put it well; I'd add that many are repulsed by the antics of rabid Wagnerians and all the other stuff surrounding Wagner and his "tradition" (Winifred, Hitler, whatnot) but all this has very little to do with the music. People who are put off by Wagnerianism tend to underrate the composer, I guess.
But I think that by many musicians, dramatists, composers and a few other artists (like Thomas Mann who was totally nuts about Wagner) Wagner is often highly rated and properly revered for really stunning achievements. Although even among such elite connoisseurs the hype might have been a little over the top ca. 1875-1915.
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1993 on: June 22, 2017, 09:52:47 AM »
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

His mature works are the pinncale of romanticsm, but at the same time trascend that artistic movement to open the gates of modernity in the arts.

If I don't say it, I explode!  ;D

This could well be true.
He is I think the most influential artist of any sort in the past 300 years. (Even J-Lo pales in comparison.) That's not chopped liver.  I also think he is very under rated as an abstract musical thinker. I was amazed by Deryck Cooke's lectures where he illustrated the links and transformations of the leitmotifs in the Ring.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1994 on: June 22, 2017, 10:26:31 AM »
This might well be true. Bach and Beethoven might have been as influential or more in music but Wagner is probably the only musician who had such a huge influence on other arts, especially literature. This seems uncommon for musicians and even in other arts one probably has to go back to Shakespeare (and then Dante) to find such a huge interdisciplinary influence.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1995 on: June 22, 2017, 10:41:46 AM »
This might well be true. Bach and Beethoven might have been as influential or more in music but Wagner is probably the only musician who had such a huge influence on other arts, especially literature.

Other than many writers being Wagnerians, how does this "influence" translate in terms of literature, ie literary techniques or themes? Could you name one "Wagnerian" literary work?
“Melody is the essence of music.”  --- Mozart

Offline Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1996 on: June 22, 2017, 10:46:27 AM »
Other than many writers being Wagnerians, how does this "influence" translate in terms of literature, ie literary techniques or themes? Could you name one "Wagnerian" literary work?
Der Ring das Niebelungen.

So how about Lord of the Rings too?
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1997 on: June 22, 2017, 10:48:41 AM »
Other than many writers being Wagnerians

Other than many writers being Marxist, how does Marx's influence spread into writing?  ::)

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Offline Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1998 on: June 22, 2017, 10:52:27 AM »
You really can't have it both ways Andrei. Either Wagnerians are cultists whose lives are taken over, whose minds and souls are obsessed by Wagner and his vision OR he has no real influence on them.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #1999 on: June 22, 2017, 10:52:57 AM »
Der Ring das Niebelungen.

You're kidding, right? I do hope you are.

Quote
So how about Lord of the Rings too?

According to Wikipedia:

Tolkien sought to dismiss critics' direct comparisons to Wagner, telling his publisher, "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases." According to Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, the author claimed to hold Wagner's interpretation of the relevant Germanic myths in contempt, even as a young man before reaching university.[57]
“Melody is the essence of music.”  --- Mozart