Author Topic: Unpopular Opinions  (Read 282853 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2000 on: June 22, 2017, 10:54:25 AM »
You really can't have it both ways Andrei. Either Wagnerians are cultists whose lives are taken over, whose minds and souls are obsessed by Wagner and his vision OR he has no real influence on them.

I claimed neither, actually.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2001 on: June 22, 2017, 10:58:21 AM »
Other than many writers being Marxist, how does Marx's influence spread into writing?  ::)

Good question. Dashiell Hammett or Gabriel Garcia Marquez were hardline commies --- now please show me one literary work of theirs which shows it.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2002 on: June 22, 2017, 11:14:19 AM »
You're kidding, right? I do hope you are.

According to Wikipedia:

Tolkien sought to dismiss critics' direct comparisons to Wagner, telling his publisher, "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases." According to Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, the author claimed to hold Wagner's interpretation of the relevant Germanic myths in contempt, even as a young man before reaching university.[57]

It's remarkable Andrei to see you cite a man reacting to Wagner in his youth, about the magnum opus and central concern of his life, and not see that as influence. This is like saying Christianity had no influence on Islam, since it is so explicitly anti-Christian.

Online Jo498

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2003 on: June 22, 2017, 11:21:30 AM »
It has been claimed for several books that they use something like Wagnerian leitmotiv technique. Then also the themes. Thomas Mann wrote one short story/novella "Tristan", another one "Wälsungenblut" (about incestous siblings). In "Buddenbrooks" the decadence of the last of that line (a consumptive and dreamy boy) is illustrated by his obsession with Wagner. It's been ages that I read that and I haven't read all of his books but there are more allusions and there is often something close to leitmotivs. Of course, it could be claimed that something like a leitmotiv running through a longer novel is nothing new or especially Wagnerian. I am not an expert on such stuff but I trust that historians of literature would be able to tell a difference between pre- and post-Wagnerian use of such techniques.

Mann is the only one I have read and can vouch for myself; then there is of course Nietzsche (who later reversed to hating Wagner). Regardless of Nietzsche's turn, what he describes as the dionysian aspect of music was found by many to be perfectly incorporated in Wagner's music.

wikipedia mentions a whole bunch:
Charles Baudelaire, Stéphane Mallarmé, Paul Verlaine  Édouard Dujardin, J. K. Huysmans, D. H. Lawrence, Aubrey Beardsley, Romain Rolland, Gérard de Nerval, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Rainer Maria Rilke, W. H. Auden, Thomas Mann, Marcel Proust, James Joyce, T. S. Eliot. (There are almost no Germans on that list, so I guess lesser and more parochial followers were excluded)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Influence_on_literature.2C_philosophy_and_the_visual_arts
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 11:26:35 AM by Jo498 »
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Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2004 on: June 22, 2017, 11:24:04 AM »
Good question. Dashiell Hammett or Gabriel Garcia Marquez were hardline commies --- now please show me one literary work of theirs which shows it.
Can't stand Marquez. As for Hammett, there's the plays of Lillian Hellman. I am one of many who believe Hammett helped write some of them. But in any case, this doesn't help your case. Just because Hammett's writings aren't communist doesn't mean marxism didn't influence/distort other writers.

Turner

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2005 on: June 22, 2017, 11:39:04 AM »
This might well be true. Bach and Beethoven might have been as influential or more in music but Wagner is probably the only musician who had such a huge influence on other arts, especially literature. This seems uncommon for musicians and even in other arts one probably has to go back to Shakespeare (and then Dante) to find such a huge interdisciplinary influence.

And painting too, btw -  albeit in a way that often appears kitschy to us today, and especially as regards symbolist painters, that are to some extent forgotten now. No other composer has inspired so many painters.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 11:45:50 AM by Turner »

nodogen

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2006 on: June 23, 2017, 12:21:55 AM »
I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but I've got to get it off my chest.

John Ogdon's performances of Scriabin's sonatas are heavy-handed and haphazard. Little understanding for the music seems apparent.

There, I said it.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2007 on: June 23, 2017, 12:30:13 AM »
Okay, I got it: art history has two periods: before Wagner and after Wagner; everything before was just a preparation for his advent, everything after is just a commentary upon, or reaction to, his work.

I am still an unrepentant heretic.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Online ritter

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2008 on: June 23, 2017, 12:43:00 AM »

I am still an unrepentant heretic.
Burn him at the stake!  ;D

No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver... ;)
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Turner

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2009 on: June 23, 2017, 12:47:36 AM »
I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but I've got to get it off my chest.

John Ogdon's performances of Scriabin's sonatas are heavy-handed and haphazard. Little understanding for the music seems apparent.

There, I said it.

I´m not a big fan of Ogdon either. Often forceful but with less architecture, IMO. A fine Busoni solo piano recording though - the Fantasias. I´ve got about a dozen LPs/CDs with him.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 01:15:06 AM by Turner »

pjme

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2010 on: June 23, 2017, 01:07:26 AM »
Hmmm - will this be ..exiting?? Found it at Slipped disc.



Wagner’s “The Ring of the Nibelung” in historically-informed performance practice – Concerto Köln and Kent Nagano launch an extraordinary project

In their most recent collaboration, Concerto Köln and the internationally-renowned conductor, Kent Nagano, pursue a leading-edge project: in cooperation with scientists at the university and Musichochschule in Cologne, they are taking on Richard Wagner’s tetralogy, “The Ring of the Nibelung”. Their undertaking will provide the international opera scene with new impetus in historically-informed approaches to musical-theatrical works of the 19th century.

Jochen Schäfsmeier (Managing Director, Concerto Köln): “Concerto Köln is as honoured as it is inspirited to approach Wagner’s ‚Ring’ together with Kent Nagano and to be able to make an important contribution to the historical performance practice of 19th century music.”

For the first time, the entire “Ring” is to be viewed from an early music movement perspective: the instrumental and vocal styles as well as the staging at the time of Wagner will be examined over a period of several years and compiled to form a historically-informed performance concept.

Kent Nagano (Artistic Director): “It is due to historical performance practice that nowadays there is a much different understanding of many composers and their works than was standard 30 or 40 years ago. Moreover, thanks to historicized approaches, we have gained knowledge about instruments and playing techniques which opens up to us new, pioneering pathways into the interpretation and performance of our music.

Richard Wagner’s ‚The Ring of the Nibelung’ is probably one of the most researched compositions yet nonetheless, a systematic approach to the tetralogy from a historically-informed perspective has not been attempted thus far. It is therefore all the more important that such an undertaking is tackled and that, in romantic repertoire now as well, normality in terms of sound which seemed irrefutable so far is called into question.

I have collaborated together with Concerto Köln for several projects in the past and am convinced that I have found two most competent partners in the Cologne ensemble and the Kunststiftung NRW who are able to provide the scientific basis for a historically-informed reading of Richard Wagner’s ‚Ring’. Together we will pursue this endeavor and bring the music to the stage!”

 

The simultaneously scientific as well as artistic undertaking on such a mammoth scale requires tremendous effort with the additional aim of becoming a guide to performance practice of 19th century music and opera. The outcome, interpreted by Concerto Köln and Kent Nagano, will be performed from the 2020/21 onward. All research findings will be published in Open Access.

 

Prof. Dr. Hans-Joachim Wagner (Kunststiftung NRW): “For the Kunststiftung NRW, the support of the project, ‚WAGNER-READINGS’, is of significance in a number of ways. For several years, supporting artistic research has played a major role within the Kunststiftung’s funding programs – albeit with a primary focus on theater, dance and literature; examples of this being the Christoph-Schlingensief guest professorship for scenic research at the Ruhr University in Bochum, the Pina Bausch fellowship and the Thomas Kling lectureship at the University of Bonn. With ‚WAGNER-READINGS’, the base of support is expanded to the area of music, bringing art and research together in a so to speak ideal-typical way by conducting research into the complex correlations involved in the musical-theatrical production of Wagner and translating the results into artistic practice.”

 

Initial work already began in May of 2017. The official go-ahead for the project is a symposium in September, 2017. Financial support is provided by the Kunststiftung NRW and the Freunde von Concerto Köln e.V. Additional support is provided by the Strecker-Stiftung and MBL Akustikgeräte GmbH & Co. KG.

 

Further information can be found at  www.wagner-lesarten.de


nodogen

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2011 on: June 23, 2017, 01:20:45 AM »
I´m not a big fan of Ogdon either. Often forceful but with less architecture, IMO.

The performances almost make them appear to be different works when compared to other renditions that I have. I even thought my CD player was skipping, it seemed so different. 😧

nodogen

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2012 on: June 23, 2017, 03:57:12 AM »
Do you like Ashkenazy's?  :)

Only got him with the London Philharmonic (Piano Concerto).

nodogen

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2013 on: June 23, 2017, 04:03:50 AM »
In fact, while I'm opining...

I had a Richter CD of Scriabin which I found unlistenable. I can't get on with old recordings that have inferior sound quality, whoever the composer or performer. It went to the charity shop....

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2014 on: June 23, 2017, 04:15:55 AM »
Wagner was yuuuge.  Music in the 19th century was broke, and only he could fix it.  He made all our musical dreams come true.  He was smarter than any other composer.  Very smart.  Very smart.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2015 on: June 23, 2017, 05:03:12 AM »
Wagner was yuuuge.  Music in the 19th century was broke, and only he could fix it.  He made all our musical dreams come true.  He was smarter than any other composer.  Very smart.  Very smart.

Give him credit -- Brahms, Bruckner, Dvorak, Mahler. He did make the symphony great again.

 
 ;) ;D

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2016 on: June 23, 2017, 05:09:15 AM »
The power of a negative example!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

kishnevi

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2017 on: June 23, 2017, 06:51:40 AM »
In fact, while I'm opining...

I had a Richter CD of Scriabin which I found unlistenable. I can't get on with old recordings that have inferior sound quality, whoever the composer or performer. It went to the charity shop....
I am with you. That's why I have so little from before the stereo age (and that usually because it's part of something else).

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2018 on: June 23, 2017, 09:56:42 AM »
Give him credit

Oh, but I do give credit where credit is due. There is no doubt that Wagner singlehandedly* turned opera from the most "democratic" and popular form of music into an esoteric cult for the happy few --- heck, he even instituted a Mecca and a hajj. There is no God except The Gesamkunstwerk, and Wagner is His prophet.  ;D >:D :P

Seriously now, I am only too happy Wagner's path was actually followed by few; had he succeeded in imposing his views, all subsequent music would have consisted only of Rings and Parsifals --- ie, boredom, conceit and egomania would have reigned supreme, signalling the end of music as an art form, period.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Ken B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2019 on: June 23, 2017, 10:08:08 AM »
boredom, conceit and egomania would have reigned supreme, signalling the end of music as an art form, period.

Andrei, ever hear of Darmstadt?