Unpopular Opinions

[Christo]

Not an unpopular opinion, perhaps, but wouldn't it be time to acknowledge the fact that the Strauss family, and Lehar, were Jewish? Something that really caused the nazis trouble?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/04/vanessathorpe.theobserver
https://www.jweekly.com/1999/04/09/jewish-roots-of-composer-johann-strauss-emerging/

Would be a nice theme for the Vienna New Year's Concerts. 

[Florestan]

Not an unpopular opinion, perhaps, but wouldn't it be time to acknowledge the fact that the Strauss family, and Lehar, were Jewish?

Isn't it common knowledge?

[Christo]

Isn't it common knowledge?

Not at all, no.

[Florestan]

Not at all, no.

Well, it turns out that Lehar was not Jewish at all. His wife was a Jewish convert to Roman Catholicism, and it was she, not he, who was offered the "honorary Arianship"  by Hitler.

Imre Kálmán, otoh, was indeed Jewish.

[Jo498]

It isn't and according to the common sources (incl. the ones linked above) I find that Strauss senior had a Jewish grandfather who had converted to catholicism. I don't see how this makes Johann senior or the younger Strausses Jewish except by some very odd criteria (certainly not by the common ones of having a Jewish mother and practising the religion). I also fail to see how and why this matters. Johann junior's 3rd wife was Jewish and the bad treatment of his stepdaughter from that wife is mentioned in the article, but again this hardly makes a man with apparently only one Jewish great-grandparent jewish in any meaningful (except in the Nazi "tainted bloodline") sense.

This probably not quite serious website calls Strauss jun. "barely a Jew", so I guess the converted great-grandfather was the only Jewish ancestor.
http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=983

This site gives the false impression that Johann senior's father was a Jew (rather than the catholic son of a converted Jew and a gentile woman) but still opines that "We ought not to consider the Strauss family Jewish except in the eyes of the enemies of God and man."

http://jbuff.com/c080703.htm

Lehar had a Jewish (converted to catholicism) wife who became "honorably Aryan" because her husband was so popular with Hitler; I do not find anything about a possible jewish decent of Lehar.

So there is not much to recognize, accept for a distant heritage we would hardly ever mention in any other case (e.g. if Johann junior's great-grandfather had been an Irishman), so why stress it in this particular case?

[Christo]

so why stress it in this particular case?

Obviously, for one good reason only: what happened with them in the Nazi time.

[North Star]

I do not find anything about jewish decent.

Might want to fix that typo.  0:)

[Florestan]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/04/vanessathorpe.theobserver

Lehar, like Strauss, was of Jewish descent,

This is incorrect. Lehar was not of Jewish descent. And I agree with Jo that having a Jewish grandfather who converted to Roman Catholicism can hardly qualify someone for a "Jewish descent".

[Christo]

Lehar, like Strauss, was of Jewish descent,

This is incorrect. Lehar was not of Jewish descent. And I agree with Jo that having a Jewish grandfather who converted to Roman Catholicism can hardly qualify someone for a "Jewish descent".

Again, I'm not talking about us, I'm talking about the Nazis - for whom he would have counted as 'Jewish' anyhow, the more so since Johann II married a Jewish woman. IIRC, there was some cleaning done of the archives in Vienna after the 1938 Anschluss.

[Florestan]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/04/vanessathorpe.theobserver

Hitler, who is believed to have said: 'I decide who is Jewish.'

That's also incorrect. It was actually said by Karl Lueger

Again, I'm not talking about us, I'm talking about the Nazis - for whom he would have counted as 'Jewish' anyhow, the more so since Johann II married a Jewish woman. IIRC, there was some cleaning done of the archives in Vienna after the 1938 Anschluss.

I'll give you Strauss,  but Lehar was not Jewish.

[amw]

I believe the Nazis would call them Achteljuden or some similar term.

Halakha is fairly clear that you need to be born to a Jewish mother, or convert to Judaism to be a Jew. But it's definitely true that having any kind of Jewish ancestor, however remote and non-matrilineal, or a spouse with the same, could get you in trouble in Germany. I'm not sure if there is a good term for people who faced anti-semitism without being themselves Jewish but I'm happy to consider them honorary Jews even if a conservative or orthodox rabbi wouldn't >.>

[Christo]

I'll give you Strauss,  but Lehar was not Jewish.

I was only thinking of the Strauss clan - and let Lehar (did I once see his house in Slovakia? I guess so) slip in because one of these popular articles mentioned him as well.
I think the story of the forgery of the Vienna records of their Jewish descent is told here: http://www.johann-strauss.at/wissen/faelschung_e.shtml

'The troublesome Strauss entry [in the Marriage register] had been removed ... and Strauss music, 'which is so German', as the Nazi paper Der Stürmer put it, could continue to be broadcast by all radio stations in the Reich. In order to achieve this noble end there was, in terms of the opinion of the day, nothing wrong in perpetrating the minor forgery of a document.'

[Florestan]

I was only thinking of the Strauss clan - and let Lehar (did I once see his house in Slovakia? I guess so) slip in because one of these popular articles mentioned him as well.
I think the story of the forgery of the Vienna records of their Jewish descent is told here: http://www.johann-strauss.at/wissen/faelschung_e.shtml

'The troublesome Strauss entry [in the Marriage register] had been removed ... and Strauss music, 'which is so German', as the Nazi paper Der Stürmer put it, could continue to be broadcast by all radio stations in the Reich. In order to achieve this noble end there was, in terms of the opinion of the day, nothing wrong in perpetrating the minor forgery of a document.'

It's somehow amusing that Hitler and his acolytes managed to be both Wagnerians and Leharians, Brucknerians and Straussians. Siegfried and Hanna Glawari, a match made in Walhalla? 

[Mister Sharpe]

Hitler, who is believed to have said: 'I decide who is Jewish.'

That's also incorrect. It was actually said by Karl Lueger

I'll give you Strauss,  but Lehar was not Jewish.

I thought it was Göring who said that about Erhard Milch, in charge of aircraft procurement for the Luftwaffe and who reported directly to him.  "Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich..."  Perhaps there were several "deciders." 

[Ken B]

I thought it was Göring who said that about Erhard Milch, in charge of aircraft procurement for the Luftwaffe and who reported directly to him.  "Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich..."  Perhaps there were several "deciders." 

If it was worth money, Goering would want the power to decide.

[Todd]

There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.

[nodogen]

There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.

I agree, you can never have enough.

[Ken B]

There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.

I agree, you can never have enough.

Topic nazis!

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Is Josef the best Strauss?

No but Josephslegende is one of (Richard) Strauss's best works!

[Mister Sharpe]

There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.

What would the History Channel do without them?