Unpopular Opinions

Started by The Six, November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM

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jowcol

Resisting the urge to point fingers, I'll just observe that I don't understand why some people choose to devote more of their limited time on earth to trashing they music they dislike, (as well as the  the people who may like such music), and not devote the bulk of their effort to treasuring the music they love, and hopefully using a forum like this to discover new music that they had not previously known.

Frankly, if there is no love or joy in it, the game's not worth a candle.

A few things- these are my own opinions, and I'm not going to be childish enough to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with them.  To me, that smacks of insecurity, and not knowing what one is looking for.   I'm also of the mind set that I'd probably be more upset if everyone agreed with them.



I don't really get Mozart- I LOVE Bach.

If you are listening to Bach for the Harmony and not the counterpoint, it's like going to see a Jackie Chan movie without any martial arts.

I have a fondness for the Eroica-  but on the whole, I don't get Beethoven.   I like the power of his symphonies, but something about his scoring turns me off.  I have mild synesthesia, and his music appears snot green to me. 

A lot of the serialist stuff is fun for a few minutes, but I tend to find it monotonous after a while.  For Schoenberg, I tend to prefer his atonal expressionist stuff to the formal serialist stuff later.

I'm not so strong on the classical or early romantic periods. There just isn't much attraction.

I tend towards solo keyboard works or orchestral.  I've only found a couple string quartets that call me back (Ravel and Moeran), and I still haven't found a composer whose chamber works consistently floor me. 


My preferences are always evolving as my needs change.   I used to really love avante-garde stuff, but now I don't seem to need it as much.  I guess I feel like Rochberg when he reembraced more use of tonality after he found the 12 tone approach limiting to express what he was feeling.  I used to think I only liked Stravinsky's first three Ballets- it took several more years to accept Les Noces, Symphony of Psalms, the 1945 Symphony, Agon, and the Ebony Concerto as the masterpieces I feel them to be.


Very little Brahms has made much of an impression on me.


Not too big on Operas outside of Mussorgsky.   One the whole Wagner wears out his welcome very quickly with me. 


I've enjoyed music much more every since I stopped worrying if it was "Serious" or  not, As a result, I'm enjoying the serious stuff more.


There is a lot of "Non-Serious" music I downright love, and is as important to my own musical hierarchy as classical.  I love jazz artists like like John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and blues artists like Otis Rush and Buddy guy every bit as much as I love Bach and Stravinsky, not because they have the same qualities, but because they don't.  They trigger another response in me, and open other musical vistas that I never would have encountered back when I was hung up on "Serious" music, and spending a lot of time looking down on others that weren't "serious" enough.

Not sure if I confessed it yet, but I'm a huge Allman Brothers fan- at least for their instrumentals and longer works.  However, I can live the rest of my life without every hearing Rambling Man again, and I think that Gregg Allman and Dickie Betts are sleazeballs, and a lot of the other "southern rock" bands were pretty worthless.   It was the song High Falls that first convinced me that there may be music of worth outside of the "serious stuff" I was listening to.  And that there are times where improvised music could deliver a purer message to me than something composed. 

Yes, I like some trash.  Everything now and thing I need garage rock, punk, etc.  I need something for different moods.  WHo would want to eat the same meal for the rest of their lives?  And music, IMO, needs to address the whole person, not just the intellect. 

Good music is not necessarily complicated.  It is not necessarily simple.   It accomplishes what it sets out to do without pretense or posing.  That's my definition.  Your mileage may vary.  As well it should.

A great way to waste time an energy is trying to get people to feel  the same about a work as you do.  Even iif a person shares your tastes in a lot of areas, there's no predicting.  It just leads to frustration, and name calling. 

I've also learned a lot of tricks in pursuing music from people whose tastes were radically different from mine. I didn't apply these tricks to the same artists, but the ones I've like.


I keep a list of artists that I'm supposed to like, but just haven't gotten into.  I go back from time to time.  Still haven't clicked with Mahler- fascinating guy, I love the scope of his works, but parts of him just strike me as cheesy.  But there may still be a point where the gates open, and I want to be ready when it does.


And I keep looking for a new sounds to explore.  Lately, it's been early instrumental rock (not really surf or rockabilly).   Some of that stuff manages to combine some surprising sophistication with some basic urggh.  Like many discoveries, it is scratching an itch I didn't know I had.  But I'm wading through a lot of crap to collect a good compilation. 

IN any genre, "classical" included, you are likely to find a few gems and a lot of trash.  (What defines the difference is subject to some interpretation.)  One advantage in classical is that a lot of the weaker artists have been weeded out over time.   I don't understand people devoting too much energy to bashing whole genres.  If you don't like it, don't listen.  But if you hear SOMETHING in a genre you've previously disliked that moves you, it may behoove you to dig deeper.   But I don't see the point in wasting energy in throwing yourself at something that doesn't move you.   Even in some of the more problematic artists I'
ve grown to love, even if you couldn't fully grasp what whey were doing on teh first try, there would be something that would pull you back. 


I don't think anybody would be on this forum if they didn't have a strong relationship with music.   I love to see people passionate about their music.  The worst thing is indifference- people that say they like all kinds of music but you get the feeling it is all background to them.  As I've gotten older, I've learned to appreciate the excitement people bring to music that I can't stand.  Music is a personal quest for all of us, and we need to make our own path.

Also, to get back to some of the name calling, the idea of this thread was for people to vent their opinions.  An opinion, by definition, cannot be right or wrong.   I can say the only thing on this forum that has bothered me has not been someone who doesn't like one of my sacred cows, but rather  intolerance for other peoples opinions.   I honestly believe the name calling comes from insecurity.  If you really are comfortable in your own skin, there is not need to take any disagreements in tastes personnally.

And, personally, although I don't seeing the name calling aimed at others, feel free to toss any in my direction- it won't offend me, but may cause me to giggle a lot.   This is just a web forum- and in terms of stress, is nothing like the real world horrors of old age, illness, and death. 


Okay, the caffeine is wearing off.   Just one more point about the love and joy.  Music is, for me, the most endlessly fascinating art form.  I honestly believe it has powers over the mind, and opens up an incredible range of experiences.  Music is playing somewhere in my mind all the time, whether I am listening to it or not.  I believe it as important to my life as air, food, and water.   I really don't care if there rest of you share my likes and dislikes, or interpretation of what a given work "means", but I do hope  despite some of the negative threads and name calling, that each of you can find the joy in what you like, and not let  the name calling distract you from what brought you to music in the first place.





"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

BobsterLobster

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
Maybe, or maybe not (though studies on the subject imply precisely that. Musical taste is a reflection of ones own intelligence and knowledge. There's even been a study made upon classical music fans who became victims of dementia and other brain degenerative illnesses, who turned to popular music!). One thing is however certain: anybody who listens to Lady Gaga specifically is indeed totally dump and ignorant. On that, there is no ambiguity.

Can you cite your reference? Sounds very interesting!

jowcol

Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 09:41:55 AM
Word of advice .. try without the caffeine next time.

*giggles*
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

DavidRoss

Quote from: toucan on November 12, 2011, 06:23:14 AM
Amy Winehouse was ... imitative
That's what I thought.  Lots of folks I know thought she was great, but I just saw another drug addict with typically self-absorbed affectations imitating real singers who had done the same sort of thing before and much better.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

starrynight

Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 07:43:00 AM
Resisting the urge to point fingers, I'll just observe that I don't understand why some people choose to devote more of their limited time on earth to trashing they music they dislike, (as well as the  the people who may like such music), and not devote the bulk of their effort to treasuring the music they love, and hopefully using a forum like this to discover new music that they had not previously known.

Frankly, if there is no love or joy in it, the game's not worth a candle.

Yes a good thing to do is to concentrate on what you like and enjoy it to the full.  I  hate feeling there are gaps in my understanding on things though so I always try to fill in those to an extent, even if my main preferences are ultimately more limited (like just about everyone). 

I don't think I tend to just question music I don't like for the sake of it, normally it is in response to someone saying it is really important in some way and that can lead me to give my opinion on it.  There can be constructive polite criticism, though some on internet forums can certainly try to make things personal.  And I agree with you that it is completely unneccesary to do that about people on forums you don't really even know.  People should just keep it to the music.

Szykneij

Quote from: starrynight on November 12, 2011, 11:29:22 AM
And I agree with you that it is completely unneccesary to do that about people on forums you don't really even know.  People should just keep it to the music.

I also agree, especially in a thread with an opening post that says

Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
This thread is a haven where you can go against the grain without fear of persecution.
Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it.  ~ Henry David Thoreau

Don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines. ~ Satchel Paige

jowcol

#86
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
Giggling is something little girls do. Just letting you know.

*giggles even harder*


http://www.youtube.com/v/ogadm5IzJfU



One of my favorite little girls  above.

"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

some guy

You are purely unable to rise above the level of personal insult, aren't you?

Anyway, here's an unpopular opinion: Berlioz was the most important composer of the 19th century and Cage was the most important of the 20th.

Wait. Is that two opinions?

jowcol

Quote from: some guy on November 12, 2011, 12:49:42 PM
You are purely unable to rise above the level of personal insult, aren't you?

Please, don't discourage him.  I'm looking for more material.  And he rarely disappoints.  That's what I love about him so much, in my gender confused way.
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

jowcol

Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 01:04:30 PM
You are a humorless twit who could use a page out of the insult comic's handbook. And Cage is mindless crap that any unmusical shithead could pull off. Now if you excuse me, I'm off to the washroom to perform to my latest opus in his honour.

You GO girl!

"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

Karl Henning

Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:39:58 AM
How about considering the possibility that Vanhal, Dittersdorf and Hofmann are almost as good as Haydn

I considered the possibilty, but upon listening to the music, such a thesis did not hold up.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: knight66 on November 12, 2011, 06:11:01 AM
If you hear and watch Gaga being interviewd by a hald decent interviewer, you will grasp she is highly intelligent.

I consider the possibility that GaGa is more intelligent than some who post here.  And is possessed of more humor than some.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 07:43:00 AM
Resisting the urge to point fingers, I'll just observe that I don't understand why some people choose to devote more of their limited time on earth to trashing they music they dislike, (as well as the  the people who may like such music), and not devote the bulk of their effort to treasuring the music they love, and hopefully using a forum like this to discover new music that they had not previously known.

Frankly, if there is no love or joy in it, the game's not worth a candle.

A few things- these are my own opinions, and I'm not going to be childish enough to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with them.  To me, that smacks of insecurity, and not knowing what one is looking for.   I'm also of the mind set that I'd probably be more upset if everyone agreed with them.



I don't really get Mozart- I LOVE Bach.

If you are listening to Bach for the Harmony and not the counterpoint, it's like going to see a Jackie Chan movie without any martial arts.

I have a fondness for the Eroica-  but on the whole, I don't get Beethoven.   I like the power of his symphonies, but something about his scoring turns me off.  I have mild synesthesia, and his music appears snot green to me. 

A lot of the serialist stuff is fun for a few minutes, but I tend to find it monotonous after a while.  For Schoenberg, I tend to prefer his atonal expressionist stuff to the formal serialist stuff later.

I'm not so strong on the classical or early romantic periods. There just isn't much attraction.

I tend towards solo keyboard works or orchestral.  I've only found a couple string quartets that call me back (Ravel and Moeran), and I still haven't found a composer whose chamber works consistently floor me. 


My preferences are always evolving as my needs change.   I used to really love avante-garde stuff, but now I don't seem to need it as much.  I guess I feel like Rochberg when he reembraced more use of tonality after he found the 12 tone approach limiting to express what he was feeling.  I used to think I only liked Stravinsky's first three Ballets- it took several more years to accept Les Noces, Symphony of Psalms, the 1945 Symphony, Agon, and the Ebony Concerto as the masterpieces I feel them to be.


Very little Brahms has made much of an impression on me.


Not too big on Operas outside of Mussorgsky.   One the whole Wagner wears out his welcome very quickly with me. 


I've enjoyed music much more every since I stopped worrying if it was "Serious" or  not, As a result, I'm enjoying the serious stuff more.


There is a lot of "Non-Serious" music I downright love, and is as important to my own musical hierarchy as classical.  I love jazz artists like like John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and blues artists like Otis Rush and Buddy guy every bit as much as I love Bach and Stravinsky, not because they have the same qualities, but because they don't.  They trigger another response in me, and open other musical vistas that I never would have encountered back when I was hung up on "Serious" music, and spending a lot of time looking down on others that weren't "serious" enough.

Not sure if I confessed it yet, but I'm a huge Allman Brothers fan- at least for their instrumentals and longer works.  However, I can live the rest of my life without every hearing Rambling Man again, and I think that Gregg Allman and Dickie Betts are sleazeballs, and a lot of the other "southern rock" bands were pretty worthless.   It was the song High Falls that first convinced me that there may be music of worth outside of the "serious stuff" I was listening to.  And that there are times where improvised music could deliver a purer message to me than something composed. 

Yes, I like some trash.  Everything now and thing I need garage rock, punk, etc.  I need something for different moods.  WHo would want to eat the same meal for the rest of their lives?  And music, IMO, needs to address the whole person, not just the intellect. 

Good music is not necessarily complicated.  It is not necessarily simple.   It accomplishes what it sets out to do without pretense or posing.  That's my definition.  Your mileage may vary.  As well it should.

A great way to waste time an energy is trying to get people to feel  the same about a work as you do.  Even iif a person shares your tastes in a lot of areas, there's no predicting.  It just leads to frustration, and name calling. 

I've also learned a lot of tricks in pursuing music from people whose tastes were radically different from mine. I didn't apply these tricks to the same artists, but the ones I've like.


I keep a list of artists that I'm supposed to like, but just haven't gotten into.  I go back from time to time.  Still haven't clicked with Mahler- fascinating guy, I love the scope of his works, but parts of him just strike me as cheesy.  But there may still be a point where the gates open, and I want to be ready when it does.


And I keep looking for a new sounds to explore.  Lately, it's been early instrumental rock (not really surf or rockabilly).   Some of that stuff manages to combine some surprising sophistication with some basic urggh.  Like many discoveries, it is scratching an itch I didn't know I had.  But I'm wading through a lot of crap to collect a good compilation. 

IN any genre, "classical" included, you are likely to find a few gems and a lot of trash.  (What defines the difference is subject to some interpretation.)  One advantage in classical is that a lot of the weaker artists have been weeded out over time.   I don't understand people devoting too much energy to bashing whole genres.  If you don't like it, don't listen.  But if you hear SOMETHING in a genre you've previously disliked that moves you, it may behoove you to dig deeper.   But I don't see the point in wasting energy in throwing yourself at something that doesn't move you.   Even in some of the more problematic artists I'
ve grown to love, even if you couldn't fully grasp what whey were doing on teh first try, there would be something that would pull you back. 


I don't think anybody would be on this forum if they didn't have a strong relationship with music.   I love to see people passionate about their music.  The worst thing is indifference- people that say they like all kinds of music but you get the feeling it is all background to them.  As I've gotten older, I've learned to appreciate the excitement people bring to music that I can't stand.  Music is a personal quest for all of us, and we need to make our own path.

Also, to get back to some of the name calling, the idea of this thread was for people to vent their opinions.  An opinion, by definition, cannot be right or wrong.   I can say the only thing on this forum that has bothered me has not been someone who doesn't like one of my sacred cows, but rather  intolerance for other peoples opinions.   I honestly believe the name calling comes from insecurity.  If you really are comfortable in your own skin, there is not need to take any disagreements in tastes personnally.

And, personally, although I don't seeing the name calling aimed at others, feel free to toss any in my direction- it won't offend me, but may cause me to giggle a lot.   This is just a web forum- and in terms of stress, is nothing like the real world horrors of old age, illness, and death. 


Okay, the caffeine is wearing off.   Just one more point about the love and joy.  Music is, for me, the most endlessly fascinating art form.  I honestly believe it has powers over the mind, and opens up an incredible range of experiences.  Music is playing somewhere in my mind all the time, whether I am listening to it or not.  I believe it as important to my life as air, food, and water.   I really don't care if there rest of you share my likes and dislikes, or interpretation of what a given work "means", but I do hope  despite some of the negative threads and name calling, that each of you can find the joy in what you like, and not let  the name calling distract you from what brought you to music in the first place.







I may not agree with everything you say, but I dig the tone of your saying it.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 12:53:16 PM
Please, don't discourage him.  I'm looking for more material.  And he rarely disappoints.  That's what I love about him so much, in my gender confused way.

Can always do with more bingo cards
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

PaulR


       
  • I don't think of rankings of composers is a good idea, I like what I like.  Vanhal might not be on the level of Haydn or Mozart, but I enjoy his music all the same.
  • I don't particularly care for Wagner.  I find his music to be too bombastic, with only few moments of brilliance with many  more moments of music just wondering around going nowhere.
  • I don't particularly care for the solo flute, and saxophone.

jowcol

Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2011, 01:12:17 PM
Can always do with more bingo cards

The next project will be a bit more interactive.  Oops!  I've said too much.
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

some guy

jowcol, you know perfectly well that James cannot be discouraged!

He's invincible!!

snyprrr

I have found the one topic of discussion that is absolutely forbidden in The West.

Karl Henning

Quote from: paulrbass on November 12, 2011, 01:14:07 PM

       
  • I don't think of rankings of composers is a good idea, I like what I like.  Vanhal might not be on the level of Haydn or Mozart, but I enjoy his music all the same.


Excellent. You anticipated a follow-up post I was considering to the effect that enjoying Vanhal's music is one thing, asserting that it's as good as Haydn's, quite another.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot