Unpopular Opinions

Started by The Six, November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM

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Mirror Image

Quote from: Opus106 on December 07, 2011, 09:58:23 PM
Hmm... I actually think it needs more triangles.

...or cowbell. :)

Opus106

Regards,
Navneeth

Superhorn

   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .

Have you worked with any of them?

Karl Henning

Funny how it's all the HIP musicians who have such grievous character failiings.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Almost as if we're transferring our personal distaste for a style, to alleged personal failings of those who work in the style.

But it's purely an artistic opinion, of course; no mere empty ad hominem here.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Opus106

Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .

Beethoven, Wagner, Mozart... the list goes on. I suppose you don't listen to their music as well.
Regards,
Navneeth

Geo Dude

#367
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 07:59:52 AM
Have you worked with any of them?

A good question.  I'll add a second one in the same vein for Superhorn.  Have you read or watched any interviews with these musicians?

springrite

Quote from: Opus106 on December 08, 2011, 08:16:25 AM
Beethoven, Wagner, Mozart... the list goes on. I suppose you don't listen to their music as well.

I remember saying this to a friend during a discussion about Bill Clinton:" You realize you are voting to election a CEO to USA Incorporated, NOT electing a POPE."

While people like Feldman, Cage, Carter, Giulini, Levine are people I would love to know as friends, most of the musicians and composers I love and enjoy are people whom I wouldn't be able to stand (for longer than a cup of tea) as people in real life, which is just fine.

BTW, I like you in both cases, Dr. Karl Henning!
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

madaboutmahler

"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

madaboutmahler

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2011, 07:35:27 PM
Brahms 4th would be the greatest symphony from the Romantic era if it didn't contain the all too sunny third movement.

I love that third movement, a nice dose of joy between the outer movements!
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Bulldog

Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .

I'm surprised you haven't accused them of child abuse.

Lethevich

Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2011, 08:43:22 AM
I'm surprised you haven't accused them of child abuse.

Not to mention Gardiner's family history - combine all these and we'll really have an unpopular opinion :)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Opus106

Regards,
Navneeth

Lethevich

Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Karl Henning

Quote from: springrite on December 08, 2011, 08:39:07 AM
I remember saying this to a friend during a discussion about Bill Clinton:" You realize you are voting to election a CEO to USA Incorporated, NOT electing a POPE."

While people like Feldman, Cage, Carter, Giulini, Levine are people I would love to know as friends, most of the musicians and composers I love and enjoy are people whom I wouldn't be able to stand (for longer than a cup of tea) as people in real life, which is just fine.

BTW, I like you in both cases, Dr. Karl Henning!

(* blush *)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Opus106

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 08, 2011, 09:07:38 AM
Like Max Mosley, a Nazi in the closet.

Oh.

And there was that other HIPster who was quite open about it: Herbert von Karajan.
Regards,
Navneeth

Florestan

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 08, 2011, 08:31:54 AM
A good question.  I'll add a second one in the same vein for Superhorn.  Have you read or watched any interviews with these musicians?

Yes, that's a very good question too. I've read interviews with basically all those mentioned in the (very sadly) now defunct Goldberg Magazine website and I don't remember them displaying any of the "qualities" Superhorn attributes them.

Karl's comment about projecting the hate of HIP on HIPsters seems to me very apt.



Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Superhorn

    I'm not attacking their  performances , but their attitudes .  I've read many  interviews they've given,  plus  the liner notes to CDs some of them have written , and heard them on the radio etc. 
    I have some of their recordings , and like some of  the countless ones by them I've heard very much, though by no means all of them .
  It's the sheer arrogance  and smugness of many of their pronunciations that irritate me so much .  They're so cock sure of how "authentic they are and  sneer so superciliously at other musicians , past and present who  aren't HIP. 
   I'm currently involved in a controversy at musoc.org , a website  which  is devoted to  trying to promote classical music and to
defend it from  philistinism, even though its  frankly  elitist viewpoint  is very counterproductive .
It stands for "music and society".  The website has its  "Hall of Shame " awards for musicians  it  condemns for what it considers crassness or stupidity of behavior .  A while ago, I sent them an e mail  recommending the English  orchestra administrator and former record producer John Boyden  ,now artistic director of the New Queen's Hall orchestra of London, the only period instrument  orchestra devoted to  the music of  Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Wagner, Brahms,  Mahler, Bruckner,Holst and other late 19th and early 20th century composers . 
   It's recorded the first HIP version of Holst's The Planets .  Boyden  ,on the orchestra's website makes all kinds of stupefyingly arrogant  and snooty comments about his orchestra's supposed vast superiority to our mainstream orchestras in this repertoire, and 
I  informed music.org of his  fatuous comments . You can see them at the orchestra's website, just  put New Queen's hall orchestra on your search engine.
    He wrote an angry response , accusing me of "bigotry" and "intolerance" toward his orchestra.  I replied that it's not his orchestra I object to, but his  claims.  His son Matthew,  who has written a biography of Richard Strauss came to his defense and made all kinds of ad  hominem attacks on me, accusing me of "stupidity", "ignorance" and "anti-intellectualism" .    His rant was too silly to offend me .
    You can see the whole  thing at musoc.org.
   I repeat - I'm not opposed to the use of period instruments , and don't condemn any one merely for using them. 
What I object to is  the stupid claims of so many HIP musicians. 
    I proposed the "Christopher Hogwash awards " for HIP fatuousness .   No offense meant to Hogwood personally .

Lethevich

So you've managed to extrapolate one personal dispute onto most practictioners of a whole artform? That is pretty cool. Don't say that you wouldn't be so mad about the whole issue if that single event hadn't happened.

Quote from: Superhorn on December 09, 2011, 12:37:42 PM
They're so cock sure of how "authentic they are

What other definition is there? Academy of Ancient Music and Concentus Musicus Wien sound more like classical period orchestras than the Berlin Philharmonic - this is a fact, and it is indisputable. That they sound exactly the same, I can't imagine many HIP musicians claiming (apart from perhaps your friend John Boyden).
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.