Unpopular Opinions

Started by The Six, November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM

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CaughtintheGaze

Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
So this WASN'T criticising my method of listening?

Critical of your judgment.

PaulR

I think I may have said this previously in this thread, in a more blunt and uneducated fashion, but I do not at all care for Wagner's operas.  I find nothing in them that rewards me*. 

That said, I do appreciate his theories on opera and agree with most of them.  Don't exactly know why it doesn't translate into me liking the music.

*Statement taken at 10:30 AM on September 21st 2012.  The poster has a right to change his mind at any point with no penalties.

Madiel

#702
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:21:37 AM
is 6 minutes really enough time to judge whether you like a piece or not?  If yes, how does one know the initial attraction of a piece will maintain its shine through multiple listenings?  If no, how can one possibly know, in one 6 minute listen, that you wouldn't find the music interesting in the future?

If it's a 6 minute piece, I would have thought 6 minutes was the perfect amount of time for gaining an impression of the piece! (EDIT: Especially if hearing it live.  I'm now imagining a concert where the orchestra plays the piece multiple times in case the audience didn't 'get it' the first time.)

If yes: I don't, but we're talking about interest, not liking, and it's extremely rare for something to stop being of interest even if I don't necessarily really like it.

If no: I don't.  But again, you're talking about a piece of music, and I'm primarily talking about an entire body of work.  If I don't find my first encounter with a composer/pop artist interesting, but I hear another piece and find it of interest, I am highly like to go back and listen to that first work again.

The idea that I stick entirely to what I alreadly like is highly amusing, simply because it's so massively far from the truth. I'm currently looking at buying the music of 6 different composers.  Two of them are composers I own no CDs for and know very little of their music.  Three of them are composers I only own a single CD for.  The sixth - Liszt - is a composer for whom I own just 3 CDs (Annees de pelerinage), who isn't actually a favourite, who I have to really pay attention to and knuckle down with to get the most out of his pieces, but who interests me.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:04:52 AM
For anyone who says that Glass is a bore, I'd ask them what they've actually heard of his. Sames goes for Adams, who sometimes gets lumped in with him.

I a little late to this party, but I agree here. I'm bias when it comes to Glass and his music, been an avid listener for 20 years now, but when there is a negative comment about his music I tend to always ask the pieces they've heard. Glass from the seventies is quite different from Glass of the past ten years. Still similar to the core, but there have been many elements and layers that have appeared later in his career. Music in Fifths and Symphony No.9, written decades apart, are on different planes.

Madiel

Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:24:00 AM
Critical of your judgment.

*Looks at title of the thread*

Ah yes. Sorry. Missed the memo.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

PaulR

Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:36:23 AM
If it's a 6 minute piece, I would have thought 6 minutes was the perfect amount of time for gaining an impression of the piece! (EDIT: Especially if hearing it live.  I'm now imagining a concert where the orchestra plays the piece multiple times in case the audience didn't 'get it' the first time.)

If yes: I don't, but we're talking about interest, not liking, and it's extremely rare for something to stop being of interest even if I don't necessarily really like it.

If no: I don't.  But again, you're talking about a piece of music, and I'm primarily talking about an entire body of work.  If I don't find my first encounter with a composer/pop artist interesting, but I hear another piece and find it of interest, I am highly like to go back and listen to that first work again.


The idea that I stick entirely to what I alreadly like is highly amusing, simply because it's so massively far from the truth. I'm currently looking at buying the music of 6 different composers.  Two of them are composers I own no CDs for and know very little of their music.  Three of them are composers I only own a single CD for.  The sixth - Liszt - is a composer for whom I own just 3 CDs (Annees de pelerinage), who isn't actually a favourite, who I have to really pay attention to and knuckle down with to get the most out of his pieces, but who interests me.
That is not a particularly "new" concept.  I am thinking of Schoenberg and co (I believe it was them) holding concerts to that effect.  Also, 6 minutes really is not that long of a time.  A second listening right away might reveal something new that you didn't notice, or confirm something that you didn't and didn't particularly care for.  But 6 minutes of any music is not enough time to determine if you truly are interested in a piece or not.  Chances are, you became interested in the music you like after multiple listenings to the same piece/artist and the first listening was merely a gateway in.  Besides, if you dismiss a piece or a composer after 6 minutes and don't listen to said composer again, how do you know you won't like the composer in 6 years?
But interests do change, usually more often than one might think.  You might find composer/concept interesting at different points of your life.  Again, how is 6 minutes enough to judge this?

North Star

Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:51:06 AM
But interests do change, usually more often than one might think.  You might find composer/concept interesting at different points of your life.  Again, how is 6 minutes enough to judge this?
And even at different times of day.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Madiel

Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:51:06 AM
That is not a particularly "new" concept.  I am thinking of Schoenberg and co (I believe it was them) holding concerts to that effect.  Also, 6 minutes really is not that long of a time.  A second listening right away might reveal something new that you didn't notice, or confirm something that you didn't and didn't particularly care for.  But 6 minutes of any music is not enough time to determine if you truly are interested in a piece or not.  Chances are, you became interested in the music you like after multiple listenings to the same piece/artist and the first listening was merely a gateway in.  Besides, if you dismiss a piece or a composer after 6 minutes and don't listen to said composer again, how do you know you won't like the composer in 6 years?
But interests do change, usually more often than one might think.  You might find composer/concept interesting at different points of your life.  Again, how is 6 minutes enough to judge this?

Whatever Schoenberg might have done, this has an air of unreality about it.  Are you seriously suggesting that if you go to a concert, and hear a piece you've never heard before, and the piece is 6 minutes long, you're not allowed to have an opinion of what you thought of the piece?

Again, you haven't read what I said.  Where on earth do you get the idea that I have only listened to 6 minutes of Philip Glass?I've even doubled that timeframe tonight, AFTER posting my initial comment about not finding the music of Philip Glass interesting.  How much Philip Glass listening am I required to clock up before having an opinion on Philip Glass?  I'm sure I've got at least 2-3 hours under my belt by now.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

DavidRoss

Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
So this WASN'T criticising my method of listening?
No. Hearing brief samples is not the same as listening ... a distinction that I hope is more obvious than the point Don was trying to make about "opinions." (Clearly he had in mind the distinction between an opinion, which is at least somewhat informed, and a prejudice, which requires no knowledge whatsoever.)

Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
Where did you randomly pluck the figure of 30 seconds from?  You posted a Youtube clip that was over 6 minutes long.
And almost exactly 5 minutes after I posted it, you posted your reaction. There's no way you could have heard the whole clip, let alone the entire concerto. And I imagine that at least a minute or two elapsed after my posting before you went to the site, thread, post, sample, and started listening. And then that you might have thought about what you'd heard for at least 30 seconds or so before taking a minute or two to post your reaction.

Was my guess at 30 seconds too generous? ;)

And there's probably no way you would know this, but the 30 seconds are also an homage to a former very active member here (and on Amazon) noted for reviewing music and recordings based on the 30-second sound clips accompanying Amazon's product listings.

Most of us eventually gave up expecting him to be rational enough to even want to understand why some folks regard that as an inadequate basis for forming opinions (though not for expressing prejudices). Of course, no one ever would have mistaken him for the brightest candle on the cake ... other than himself, of course (an all too common and very human failing).

"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

John Copeland

I have a composer I too am interested in but 'cannot get'  Olivier Messiaen.  I am interested in him because I heard The Turangalila Symphony in 1990, thought it dreadful and worth another listen for that reason, to find something I liked in it.  I don't know what I liked in it, but found something in the structure and purpose of his musical designs which I decided was somehow profound in the grand scheme of things, and from time to time I still listen to him.  His music does not resonate with me whatsoever, but I think the sentiment of his music keeps making me go back.
So I agree that even if a composer is not your cup of tea, you can still be interested in their works even in a way you might not quite understand yourself.  It would be unlikely for any Classical music fan to completely dismiss a composer in one 6 minuite hearing, never to be heard again (!), but I do agree that a good ear can make initial judgements about the style of a piece and what the composer has put into it, and access that when he comes across another work or works by the same composer for comparision with new listenings...the other end of the spectrum, one can like a new piece or 'lilt' of a composer so much that you must get everything they did, immediately and urgently (as happened to me with Salinen, Rangstrom, Atterberg and Arvo Part.)
Aye, it's a funny business this music lark.   :-\

DavidRoss

Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:31:08 AM
I think I may have said this previously in this thread, in a more blunt and uneducated fashion, but I do not at all care for Wagner's operas.  I find nothing in them that rewards me*. 

That said, I do appreciate his theories on opera and agree with most of them.  Don't exactly know why it doesn't translate into me liking the music.
I suspect it's because he was a much better theorist than practitioner, and much better composer than dramatist.

It's a challenge to set aside all the hype (which began with Wagner himself, certainly one of the greatest narcissists in human history) about Wagner's music dramas (especially The Ring) being the greatest thing since indoor plumbing ... and to force yourself time and again to suspend disbelief ... and to drink enough coffee! ... to hang in there enough to appreciate the gold left in the pan after sluicing out all the sand.

Just remember that even his severest critics recognized that there are moments of magnificence among the quarter-hours of drudgery. ;)
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:15:56 AM
No. Hearing brief samples is not the same as listening ... a distinction that I hope is more obvious than the point Don was trying to make about "opinions." (Clearly he had in mind the distinction between an opinion, which is at least somewhat informed, and a prejudice, which requires no knowledge whatsoever.)

Not to fuel the fire but a heartfelt thanks Dave for doing a better job than I at making this point clear. Unfortunately I let frustration get the better of me. :)



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Madiel

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:15:56 AM
And almost exactly 5 minutes after I posted it, you posted your reaction. There's no way you could have heard the whole clip, let alone the entire concerto. And I imagine that at least a minute or two elapsed after my posting before you went to the site, thread, post, sample, and started listening. And then that you might have thought about what you'd heard for at least 30 seconds or so before taking a minute or two to post your reaction.

You can imagine and surmise a lot of things, but of the three propositions listed here, only one is actually correct.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Sergeant Rock

#713
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 20, 2012, 09:15:55 PM
There are two versions that may be of interest to you. I have not heard either one (but maybe soemeone here has). Both are often associated with the terms 'hot', 'molten', 'fiery', or something similar. They are Stokowski and Rozhdestvensky (Live Proms recording).

Thank you for the recommendation. And thanks too to Monkey Greg (Solti) and Karl (in a PM offering Munch/Boston). I don't know whether any of these versions would be revelation, making Scène aux champs more interesting than the others I've heard. I'll keep them all in mind for future purchases. For reference, here are the Symphonie fantastiques I own already:


MUNCH           BUDAPEST SO
BERNSTEIN      O NATIONAL FRANCE
KARAJAN           BERLIN
DAVIS           CONCERTGEBOUW
DAVIS           LSO
MARTINON       O NATIONAL OTRF
NORRINGTON   LONDON CLASSICAL
MAAZEL           CLEVELAND
GARDINER   O REVOLUTIONNAIRE ET ROMANTIQUE

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Karl Henning

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:30:50 AM
Does that mean you liked Norrington? After enjoying his Mahler 1st (much to my surprise), my mind's more open to his efforts. 

Is it the Stuttgart or London Classical disc that you and Sarge like so much?

Sorry I left this question hanging, Dave!

The London Classical Players disc . . . in fact, as a result of these reminiscences, I've ordered it back in . . . keen to revisit it after all these years . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Sammy

#715
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 07:01:54 AM
How much Philip Glass listening am I required to clock up before having an opinion on Philip Glass?  I'm sure I've got at least 2-3 hours under my belt by now.[/color]

The standard is a minimum of 20 hours within a one week period. 

Seriously, I advise you to pay as little attention as possible to the criticisms you have been receiving.  Life's too short to keep listening to stuff you don't appreciate.

As for me, Berlioz is a winner and Glass isn't part of my world.

CaughtintheGaze

Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:31:08 AM
I think I may have said this previously in this thread, in a more blunt and uneducated fashion, but I do not at all care for Wagner's operas.  I find nothing in them that rewards me*. 

I was of very much the same opinion, until I took a good long break from them, and then it hit me like lightening while listening to the first disc of The Ring conducted by Karajan.

Quote from: Scots John on September 21, 2012, 07:26:52 AM
I have a composer I too am interested in but 'cannot get'  Olivier Messiaen.  I am interested in him because I heard The Turangalila Symphony in 1990, thought it dreadful and worth another listen for that reason, to find something I liked in it.  I don't know what I liked in it, but found something in the structure and purpose of his musical designs which I decided was somehow profound in the grand scheme of things, and from time to time I still listen to him.  His music does not resonate with me whatsoever, but I think the sentiment of his music keeps making me go back.

For me, the best entrance into Messiaen is his solo organ pieces. Just mind-blowing. I often have said that I prefer them to the works of Bach, without denigrating him in the slightest.

CaughtintheGaze

Quote from: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 07:56:48 AM
The standard is a minimum of 20 hours within a one week period. 

Seriously, I advise you to pay as little attention as possible to the criticisms you have been receiving.  Life's too short to keep listening to stuff you don't appreciate.

Oh, the sarcasm of bulldog. I don't care how much you listen too or how little. I simply want you to judge less swiftly, so he can at least get a fair trial.

Madiel

Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 07:58:58 AM
Oh, the sarcasm of bulldog. I don't care how much you listen too or how little. I simply want you to judge less swiftly, so he can at least get a fair trial.

Given that the first time I heard the music of Philip Glass would have been 15-20 years ago, it is not as if I uttered his name in this thread in undue haste!
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Sammy

Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 07:58:58 AM
Oh, the sarcasm of bulldog. I don't care how much you listen too or how little. I simply want you to judge less swiftly, so he can at least get a fair trial.

A fair trial?  This isn't a court of law.  Orfeo has done his listening of Glass and isn't impressed.  Maybe in a few years he will give the Glass Man another try, maybe not.  Who the hell cares?