Unpopular Opinions

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71 dB

Quote from: starrynight on January 18, 2014, 01:59:18 AM
It's just that I'm not sure necessarily the more time spent on something the better and more long lasting it will be.

Well, "silly" pop songs can sometimes be serious creative process by very talented individuals. The fact that these pop songs will be forgotten within a few decades in spite of their quality is because something else (new music) will be marketed to people and hardly anyone will be interested of what happened few decades earlier. Even classical music suffers from this. The music of Philipp Wolfrum (1854-1919) is pretty much forgotten.

Quote from: starrynight on January 18, 2014, 01:59:18 AMAs you say no point comparing music in different styles, just enjoy the best of every style.

That's why I have been on the quest to find the best of every style for the last 15-20 years. Life is too short to find all of it but who cares?  :P
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jut1972


Brian

Quote from: orfeo on January 17, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
Are you kidding? Come join me on a Tori Amos forum some time and you will see people nominating favourite performances of particular songs from a selection of sometimes several hundred options.

Yup, or the need to collect every Miles Davis live album and debate about which solos are the best-improvised.

starrynight

People can actually be completely ignorant of earlier music and just jump on board when somebody gets hyped like that's the cool thing to do.  And then they all crowd together and pat each other on the back and reassure each other that the hyped album is as good as they say it is.  That's what annoys me most about popular music now.  That's what happened with, for example, Oneohtrix Point Never's Replica.  I don't actually get his stuff from that album onwards at all.  Fashion is just like a kind of peer pressure and it's very evident with young people and popular music.  I'm not sure it's as big in classical music, the focus is more diffuse for more people with the centuries of music.

Karl Henning

Quote from: jut1972 on January 17, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
Why do we debate the merits of this performance or that performance?  The reviews which harp on about departure from metronome readings as if it's really important and vital to the merit of the piece.

I don't think there's necessarily a single answer to this question.

One of the answers, though, is the natural process of increased discernment, the longer one lives with music.  Back at an early age, some of us might not have known the difference in tone between a clarinet and a trumpet.  A lifelong engagement with music implies (or I think it ought, anyway) a never-ending game of learning to discern more and more.  (What one does with the differences which one learns to discern, can be quite another matter.)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Sammy

Quote from: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 03:01:21 AM
Well, "silly" pop songs can sometimes be serious creative process by very talented individuals. The fact that these pop songs will be forgotten within a few decades in spite of their quality is because something else (new music) will be marketed to people and hardly anyone will be interested of what happened few decades earlier. Even classical music suffers from this. The music of Philipp Wolfrum (1854-1919) is pretty much forgotten.

Who is he?


71 dB

Quote from: jut1972 on January 18, 2014, 04:58:26 AM
71db, I think you'll appreciate this:

http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/#

Yeah, thanks. It's cool. Never realised jazz was that big up until 60's.  ???

Quote from: Sammy on January 18, 2014, 10:04:01 AM
Who is he?

Philipp Wolfrum was Bavarian organist/composer and a friend of Richard Strauss and Max Reger. Wolfrum supported Reger's music and gave Reger's funeral oration. Elgar admired Wolfrum, whose Weinachtsmysterium he conducted in 1901 at a Worcestershire Philharmonic Society concert.

There's one disc of Wolfrum's organ sonatas (Martin Sander/MDG) and I have it.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

kishnevi

Quote from: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 02:36:33 AM
Yes, it's common to say you prefer the music of a band before they got very popular. Sometimes there's ground for that if the band has compromised their art for commercial success.

Another common thing is to prefer "early stuff" over "later stuff". People let the early work define the artist for them meaning change/progress is almost prohibited. For example it's common among Tangerine Dream fans to say the band went downhill after the Virgin years.


And to illustrate your point from another direction,  there are pop/rock musicians who don't change enough, and who produce, if not replicas of their early stuff ,  songs at least remarkably similar to their earlier work.   Case in point--Bruce Springsteen,  whose basic style has not (to my ears) changed fundamentally since I was first a fan of his back in the late 70s/early 80s--and who went on to produce music that might be substantially varied, but not substantially different, from the songs he produced then.  For me, his best album was probably The River.  As a result,  I stopped following him closely, and now when I go back to the stuff I loved back in my twenties,  I found it somewhat stale and dull--apparently I've changed enough that what appealed to me then does not now, or at least only intermittently. 
And now his latest release is actually a compilation of recordings from throughout his career,  originally rejected, or now simply covered in new performances, as if he's admitting he has nothing new to say at this point.

71 dB

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2014, 05:01:11 PM
And to illustrate your point from another direction,  there are pop/rock musicians who don't change enough, and who produce, if not replicas of their early stuff ,  songs at least remarkably similar to their earlier work.   Case in point--Bruce Springsteen,  whose basic style has not (to my ears) changed fundamentally since I was first a fan of his back in the late 70s/early 80s--and who went on to produce music that might be substantially varied, but not substantially different, from the songs he produced then.  For me, his best album was probably The River.  As a result,  I stopped following him closely, and now when I go back to the stuff I loved back in my twenties,  I found it somewhat stale and dull--apparently I've changed enough that what appealed to me then does not now, or at least only intermittently. 
And now his latest release is actually a compilation of recordings from throughout his career,  originally rejected, or now simply covered in new performances, as if he's admitting he has nothing new to say at this point.

Well, I have never been a Bruce Springsteen fan. I think I have heard some of his song from 25 years back when he probably had the most successful phase of his career. Those songs don't interest me a bit. It's music for people who have different taste I have. Bruce Springsteen must be very good at what he does but it doesn't seem to for me.

Now, I'm not surpriced to hear this from someone who has been following Bruce Springsteen's career. What you say makes perfect sense to me. It corresponds with the image* I have of Bruce Springsteen.

When exploring new artists I always try to "see" beyond the song I am hearing because one track is always just a part of the whole picture. I'm asking myself what kind person/group of people would produce this kind of music? What kind of music could they make? It seems one can deduct a lot from just one track! I am a bit surprised about this. Let's say you hear the biggest hit from nth album of  band X (usually it's one of the biggest hits you hear on radio or so). It's easy to find out when this band started, how old the members are and when their nth album was released. Biggest hits are often more "radio friendly" than other songs on an album. So, you can predict the tone of the whole album.

Okay, so you know when the members where born. From this you can derive what kind of influences they had. From the song you heard you can derive what influences are prominent (aah, these guys are influenced by blue grass masters etc.). Okay, but what kind of people who have these influences would produce this kind of song for their nth album that was released in year Y, y years after they started as a band? This is fuzzy logic and human brain is extremely good at solving fuzzy equations if one is willing to use their head. All the music, artists and bands you have explored before provide you with a "data space" that helps you form a fuzzy solution to the question.

The answer you come up can be badly skewed, but it may tell you already whether the artist in question is worth your time. If you feel it is, you can explore a bit more. The more songs you hear, the more accurate solution you can "calculate".

In my case this fuzzy logic method works well (not 100% but over 50% of the time), much better than taking recommendations from other people. Another benefit is that if your fuzzy solution of a band is accurate, you may be able "predict" changes in style etc so that the new album of band X isn't that shocking to you. You where ready for it!


*Here "image" means the image people have of things they don't know much about and/or don't understand much.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

arkiv

Today classical musicians can not improvise on their instruments as the past instrumentists did.

kishnevi

Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 03:32:56 AM

When exploring new artists I always try to "see" beyond the song I am hearing because one track is always just a part of the whole picture. I'm asking myself what kind person/group of people would produce this kind of music? What kind of music could they make?
[interesting but too long for a quote discussion of fuzzy logic cut because the reader can find it two replies above--JS]
In my case this fuzzy logic method works well (not 100% but over 50% of the time), much better than taking recommendations from other people. Another benefit is that if your fuzzy solution of a band is accurate, you may be able "predict" changes in style etc so that the new album of band X isn't that shocking to you. You where ready for it!

My problem with that approach is that I usually don't know enough about the background of the musicians involved to parse any of that information out; nor, since most of my listening to pop/rock music is in the form of background music/music while I'm driving,  do I pay attention to any of the barest things like genre and lyrics.  Even as a kid, my listening was overwhelmingly classical and opera, and much of pop/rock even of that era simply passed me by.  Was musician X influenced by bluegrass in his youth?  Heck, I'm not sure I could say what bluegrass is, to differentiate it from, eg.  country western/country rock/rockabilly music.

I do find that knowing the opinions of other people about particular performances does help me predict my reaction to that performance,  if I know enough about their tastes to begin with and how they compare with me.  Your opinions have no predictive value for me at the moment because, beyond your opinion of Elgar and "pop", I don't know much of your musical tastes, so I can't say if the fact that you like composer T's Symphony No. N indicates that I would or would not like it in my turn.  John (Mirror Image), OTOH,  does have predictive value, since I know he seems to have similar tastes to mine,  once I take into account that his tolerance of "modern" (=not traditional tonality) music is far higher than mine.  So if he likes that Symphony No. N,  my ears  perk up, so to speak. But this is a measure of familiarity with people's tastes, and nothing more.


71 dB

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:46:31 PM
My problem with that approach is that I usually don't know enough about the background of the musicians involved to parse any of that information out; nor, since most of my listening to pop/rock music is in the form of background music/music while I'm driving,  do I pay attention to any of the barest things like genre and lyrics.  Even as a kid, my listening was overwhelmingly classical and opera, and much of pop/rock even of that era simply passed me by.  Was musician X influenced by bluegrass in his youth?  Heck, I'm not sure I could say what bluegrass is, to differentiate it from, eg.  country western/country rock/rockabilly music.

There is no reason to apply any fuzzy logic if you aren't interested exploring in the first place. "Bluegrass" can be anything you think bluegrass is (your mental image of the term) and it was just an example. You can use concepts you know yourself, like "this sounds a lot like Elvis Presley".

It's like fitting a curve to the data you have. the less data you have, the simpler curve you can fit. Let's say you know:

y( 2 ) = 8, y( 5 ) = 210 and y( 8 ) = 618.

You can fit a second order polynomial (parabel y(x) = a*x2+b*x+c) to this set of three data points. When you do that you come up with the solution:

y(x) = 10*x2 + 6*x - 70

Now you have a function to estimate y(x) "anywhere".

Now, exploring new music you don't use exact math but fuzzy logic, your mental images instead of y(x). You do that all the time you think (make a decision of when to buy a new car etc.) but you can learn to use it effectively for exploring new music, if want that is.


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:46:31 PMI do find that knowing the opinions of other people about particular performances does help me predict my reaction to that performance,  if I know enough about their tastes to begin with and how they compare with me.

Well, that is true. Performances can be evaluated with pretty exact terms like "fast". If you like your Beethoven played fast and someone tells you performance X is fast, you can predict it's for you. Exploring new music is different. It is for the most part finding new things about yourself. It's like "Oh, I never knew I like bluegrass but I do!". If you can't predict those things, how can other people?

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:46:31 PMYour opinions have no predictive value for me at the moment because, beyond your opinion of Elgar and "pop", I don't know much of your musical tastes, so I can't say if the fact that you like composer T's Symphony No. N indicates that I would or would not like it in my turn.  John (Mirror Image), OTOH,  does have predictive value, since I know he seems to have similar tastes to mine,  once I take into account that his tolerance of "modern" (=not traditional tonality) music is far higher than mine.  So if he likes that Symphony No. N,  my ears  perk up, so to speak. But this is a measure of familiarity with people's tastes, and nothing more.

Sorry if I am not helpful to you in any way. I have always found it difficult to find my place in the world, find my purpose. I envy people who have found their place and are respected.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

kishnevi

Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 10:07:53 PM


Sorry if I am not helpful to you in any way. I have always found it difficult to find my place in the world, find my purpose. I envy people who have found their place and are respected.

No need to be sorry about a fact that's not your fault!

amw

Quote from: sanantonio on January 16, 2014, 04:14:10 AM
I too agree that Shostakovich's achievement will stand intact; what exactly his legacy will ultimately become is impossible to say.  What resonated with me the strongest was the author's opinion that Shostakovich's stock has been inflated. 

I think I was drawn to the article for a few reasons—first of all high praise for the 14th symphony, a piece that isn't talked about nearly enough; second of all finally! someone else who thinks the Op. 87 is pallid, formulaic, soporific and in general one of Shostakovich's least interesting piano pieces! (Though a few of them are fun to play.); third of all recognition that Shostakovich has become more a symbol than a composer, hence the conflating of artist and man and the lack of "balanced response to the actual notes". We hang a lot of spiritual weight on Shostakovich—he is, at present, probably the most important 20th century composer—and to a certain extent this reflects more his quasi-legendary status than the actual music he wrote. Never mind what you or I might think of that music; he himself might not have approved of a composition like (say) the Fifth or Seventh Symphonies or the Festival Overture being performed and lauded, music he wrote under duress and while intentionally hobbling himself in order to avoid official censure, while more experimental, forward-looking compositions like the Fourth Symphony, of which he was especially proud, remain comparatively obscure.

Anyway, the thread has moved on, and since you all seem to be discussing things in a calm and civilised manner with no name-calling and hair-pulling whatsoever, I suppose I will have to be the one to wade in with random (yet on-topic) pointless inflammatory comments and distract everyone.

Gesualdo is overrated! Salieri is underrated! Prokofiev's Symphony-Concerto is his greatest work! Donizetti's operas are better than Wagner's! Vladimir Horowitz was not that great! Mstislav Rostropovich and Isaac Stern may have been good musicians, but their tone is so unpleasant I can't stand listening to them! I like Glenn Gould's Mozart sonatas! White chocolate is better than milk chocolate! (etc)

Karl Henning

Quote from: amw on January 20, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
. . . second of all finally! someone else who thinks the Op. 87 is pallid, formulaic, soporific and in general one of Shostakovich's least interesting piano pieces!

Well, your post is certainly in the spirit of the thread.  But let's say there are people who think exactly the same of Bach's WTC (pallid, formulaic, soporific and in general uninteresting):  Is theirs the correct/better/more informed opinion?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 10:07:53 PM
. . . Now, exploring new music you don't use exact math but fuzzy logic . . . .

I think I understand you, but fuzzy logic sounds pejorative (and lawd knows I've seen some of it, even here on GMG ;) . . . .)

But, you only mean that logic has a different sort of exactitude than that of mathematics, yes?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: epicous on January 19, 2014, 06:52:47 AM
Today classical musicians can not improvise on their instruments as the past instrumentists did.

True. Today's musicians improvise better ;)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

North Star

Quote from: karlhenning on January 21, 2014, 05:10:42 AM
I think I understand you, but fuzzy logic sounds pejorative (and lawd knows I've seen some of it, even here on GMG ;) . . . .)

But, you only mean that logic has a different sort of exactitude than that of mathematics, yes?
I'd say he means that it uses a different sort of mathematics ;)
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: jut1972 on January 17, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
You don't see pop fans debating the merits of a Beatles Hamburg 62 performance or a 66 Wembley Stadium gig of the same song, they just enjoy the craft.

Quote from: orfeo on January 17, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
Are you kidding? Come join me on a Tori Amos forum some time and you will see people nominating favourite performances of particular songs from a selection of sometimes several hundred options.

Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2014, 05:03:16 AM
Yup, or the need to collect every Miles Davis live album and debate about which solos are the best-improvised.

Jut has apparently never met a Deadhead.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"