How many twentieth centuries?

[some guy]

Over on the GMG top 100 of the twentieth century, there has been some recognition of something that pops up almost any time anyone tries to deal with twentieth century music, the split around mid-century.

There's also the inevitable push to include obviously nineteenth century music (more on that century later) because its dates are 1900 or later.

But if one can make any sense, musically, of what went on between 1900 and 1999 (and possibly one cannot), then a few things seem to stand out: the shift of eras happened around 1910, not 1900; WWI disrupted things generally, but probably did not have as much effect on music as the musical populism of the thirties did; WWII was not only a bigger disruption, generally, but musical life changed more remarkably after 1945 than after 1918; and the era that started around then (I would date it from 1939, myself, at the beginning of WWII rather than the end) is still going on--we are still in the post-1939 era, still working out the ideas of that time. Probably will be for some time to come.

So I propose two twentieth centuries, one that lasted from c. 1910 to c. 1939 and one that is still going on.

Of course, that is too neat. If one thing stands out about musical life since 1910 or thereabouts, it is that the more significant divisions are horizontal not vertical (as hinted at in my observation about the 1930s). That is, "modern" music in its broadest sense consists of many and various and distinct strands of activity, some progressive, some retrogressive, and some iconoclastic. Put these two together, the vertical and the horizontal, and no neat list of "the 100 best" is even remotely possible, for one. For two, a better way to approach those eras is to follow both the various strands and their relationships as well as the temporal events that disrupted everything, musical or otherwise.

[The nineteenth century was not as smooth as it looks to us now. For one, we call everything in it by one word, "romantic," and yet by all accounts what its practitioners called romantic was pretty much over by 1848 (making that century's chronological split almost at the same place as the next century's). The term "realism," which caught on in literature pretty well, didn't stick as well to music, partly I suppose because it was too hard to recognize how Wagner exemplified "realism" as an ism with all those mythological stories he dramatized. Not to mention.]

[snyprrr]

Here's how I do it:

@1906: the 'hothouse' begins producing bizarre fruit

1909-1913: the culmination of Ultra-Late Romanticism, the most hallucinatory 'normal' music

1914-1919: a little mini-island of Masterpieces lurks in this turbulent era


1920: THIS is the year I promote as starting something new. It just seems so obvious that music changes here (jazz)

1929-49: the culmination of Neo-Classicism,... a generally conservative time,... the 'Disney' years, haha

1947-53: The Great Changing,... 'normal' music proceeds slowly to its death (1963-75)

1960s: The Explosion

1969-74/5): My Favorite Era of Total Inclusion & Explosion

1969-89: the larger curve of this

1986-91: The Computer Age Manifest

1980-2011: going downhill, as the old Modernist Composers die off,... creating SuperBach 2000...


See? That wasn't complicated!

[some guy]

1980-2011: going downhill, as the old Modernist Composers die off....

Since the bulk of my listening is to music written between 1980 and the present, I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree.

[Wait a tick, did I just say respectfully? I meant of course disrespectfully!! ]

[Karl Henning]

I've got bad news for you: Shostakovich is still (and will likely always be) heard more often than crusty old Pierre.  Always amusing to see your smoke & mirrors routine, claiming that Boulez has the overwhelmingly superior & original talent ROFL

[Mirror Image]

I've got bad news for you: Shostakovich is still (and will likely always be) heard more often than crusty old Pierre.  Always amusing to see your smoke & mirrors routine, claiming that Boulez has the overwhelmingly superior & original talent ROFL

I don't doubt Boulez's talent, but I doubt his own music will be remembered like Shostakovich's. Boulez will, I think, be remembered as a great conductor instead of a great composer.

[some guy]

Not to aid and abet the highjacking of me own wee thread or anything, but I do want to point out the irrelevance of how much Shostakovich or Boulez will be played in the upcoming decades or centuries.

We can only know this: we are alive now. It is sufficient.

Judging the value of music now by whether or not people who have yet to be born, whom we can never know ourselves, and whom we would possibly not even like or respect,* seems a chump's game to me.

Besides, does anyone enjoy Boulez' music less by thinking it won't ever be played as much as Shostakovich's? Does anyone enjoy Shostakovich's more by thinking that the great grandchildren of total strangers will like it more than they like Boulez?

*Highly suspect remark, more exacerbated than ameliorated by the weasel word "possibly."

[ibanezmonster]

While mediocrities flatter the crowds - Boulez earns praise from aristocracy...

"Aristocracy?" Lol, hilarious. 

[starrynight]

I haven't thought so much about the earlier part of the 20th century, but I suppose at the start you have a lingering of romanticism.  Then you have the more rhetorical sounding modernist composers like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, American symphonists from the 20s to 40s or so.  Then there was a move to a more inward modernism the early period of which was the 50s and 60s.  Then the final mature period of it, and peak for me, was in the 70s and first half of the 80s, I really like this period.  Then the final period with a myriad of styles and increasing cross-over with popular music (jazz, 'rock', electronic) from the end of the 80s to the present. 

[snyprrr]

Since the bulk of my listening is to music written between 1980 and the present, I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree.

[Wait a tick, did I just say respectfully? I meant of course disrespectfully!! ]

I'll answer more optimistically:

I haven't thought so much about the earlier part of the 20th century, but I suppose at the start you have a lingering of romanticism.  Then you have the more rhetorical sounding modernist composers like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, American symphonists from the 20s to 40s or so.  Then there was a move to a more inward modernism the early period of which was the 50s and 60s.  Then the final mature period of it, and peak for me, was in the 70s and first half of the 80s, I really like this period.  Then the final period with a myriad of styles and increasing cross-over with popular music (jazz, 'rock', electronic) from the end of the 80s to the present. 

Can we just call it 'The Era of Composers Wearing Headphones'?


I'm going to go against my usually perceived negative way and declare, Certainly, we live, Today (Teflon 11, 6012), in an 'Era of No Excuses', a time when ANY...one can, IF they have... well, whatever 'it' is...pretty much, you know what I mean? We should be receiving kadoodles of Masterpieces here, flowing from the fount of the New Totality,...

I am KingBaby, King of Excuses, and truly, I have no real excuse anymore. I can just go down to the Community College and get an Independent Study with Some Composer, and do SOMETHING (hey, if XXX Composer (whomever makes your eyes roll) can do it, so can I). The spoiled brat of the 20th  won't make it in the 21st, eh? I don't know what it would take for me, hmm...

I'll simply agree and say we are certainly living in a new paradigm, and a new reality all around, and anything and everything goes. More music is probably being produced now more than ever before? There are certainly plenty of plenty of Living Composers who adhere to The Way,... but it appears a lot of them are finding that they have to transmogrify because, well, what else is there when the sounds are all being used up at such an astounding rate?

Surely, when Benevolent Leader comes, all musical activity will revolve around the continuous staging of the Cycle of Operas based on his lives!


there is nothing new under the sun


I feel like I'm forced to ask the question again: How many more solo flute pieces do we need? How many are we going to get? I mean, I hope you see my point (sure, I would love to hear new flute music everyday,... but,... really?). I'm not saying there's not a solo flute masterpiece out there waiting to be written (really?), but I'm just picking on an extremely over saturated genre (if you'll bear with me for the sake of arguing ). If you wrote a solo flute piece, what would it sound like?




(frankly, I can tell I need an attitude adjustment) late...g'night

[ibanezmonster]

If you wrote a solo flute piece, what would it sound like?

It would be some guy playing "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star" in a high register, and then smashing the flute on the ground, chopping it on with a chainsaw, and setting it on fire. It would be the most profound solo flute piece of all, because it would be an allegory of life itself.

The piece would be titled "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Mo#@%rf@%$#r!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[some guy]

I would totally pay money to see this piece.

[jowcol]

It would be some guy playing "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star" in a high register, and then smashing the flute on the ground, chopping it on with a chainsaw, and setting it on fire. It would be the most profound solo flute piece of all, because it would be an allegory of life itself.

The piece would be titled "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Mo#@%rf@%$#r!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Wow-- I'm trailer trash and not the Aristocracy,  but I realize I'm in the presence of greatness.    Having sat through numerous Suzuki recitals, I've wanted to do the same to violins!

[Karl Henning]

Pffft!

[ibanezmonster]

Wow-- I'm trailer trash and not the Aristocracy,  but I realize I'm in the presence of greatness.    Having sat through numerous Suzuki recitals, I've wanted to do the same to violins!

Thank ya, white trash! Da derp de derp I'm white trash too and I a thinkin' that mebbe I's gonna rait a pees of myusic 4 u too, higgity biggity boo!

Da derp de derp... it will be 4 violin... same thing but u go get the ole shotgun and shoot it will screamin' "America!"

It called "I Beat mah wife an' kids!" for solo fiddle.


Even the Arrrrrrisssssssssstocracyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy will like it, derp derp! 

[springrite]

Here's how I do it:

@1906: the 'hothouse' begins producing bizarre fruit

1909-1913: the culmination of Ultra-Late Romanticism, the most hallucinatory 'normal' music

1914-1919: ...
...

1980-2011 and beyond: Elliott Carter
See? That wasn't complicated!

[Sergeant Rock]

....then smashing the flute on the ground, chopping it on with a chainsaw, and setting it on fire.

That would likely be the only avant-garde piece Gurn would love 


Sarge

[PaulSC]

It would be some guy playing "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star" in a high register, and then smashing the flute on the ground, chopping it on with a chainsaw, and setting it on fire. It would be the most profound solo flute piece of all, because it would be an allegory of life itself.

The piece would be titled "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Mo#@%rf@%$#r!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I would totally pay money to see this piece.

According to my preferred reading of Greg's description, you would be performing it!

[ibanezmonster]

According to my preferred reading of Greg's description, you would be performing it!

Ha, nice catch! 

[some guy]

I'm good with that!

[Mirror Image]

He'll likely be remembered for both. I will say that his music is quite "sophisticated," and I do sort of see where toucan gets his feathers ruffled. Those I trust the most when it comes to classical music, speak of Boulez's compositions with high veneration and respect. I, being a fool, choose to follow those who have put some study into the subject.

Well I was just speculating really. I don't know because I can't look ahead into the future. He very well could be remembered for his music too and that's fine by me. More power to those that like it. I just can't get onboard with it. As I said, I don't doubt the man's talent and great intelligence. He obviously wouldn't be where he's at today had he not had the brains, the ability, and the know-how that got him where wanted to go. He had a goal and he achieved it. I admire him as a musician, but not as a composer of original music.