Prokofiev vs. Stravinsky

[scottscheule]

Profundity became involved after the Copland quote.  I'm not sure whose music was more profound--I'd need a slightly tighter definition and more familiarity with Proke's Piano Sonatas.

Now, as to who is the greater composer--which I take it was the original question--it's obviously Stravinsky.

[Boris_G]

I get the impression that a number of posters only know 'the usual suspects' when it comes to Prokofiev: ie Peter and the Wolf, Classical Symphony, perhaps Piano Concerto No 3 and the more famous bits of Romeo and Juliet.

FWIW, here's a selection of works by Prokofiev which I think are both profound and profoundly moving:

Violin Sonata No. 1 (excellent live recording by David Oistrakh and Sviatoslav Richter on Orfeo)

Piano Sonatas Nos 6, 7 and 8 (No. 7 has been frequently recorded, but makes a lot more sense when you recognise the Schumann song alluded to in the slow movement: try Oleg Marshev's recording on Danacord which, IMHO, best captures its emotional depth).

Romeo and Juliet - the complete ballet, especially the final scene; Suite No. 2 is perhaps the best sampler of the ballet's profundity of feeling.

Symphonies Nos 6 and 7: the latter in particular is often underestimated, but when it is given due emotional weight it reveals itself to be one of his most poignant works, with a remarkably similar emotional trajectory to No. 6 (and so, IMO, revealing that Prokofiev did not retract for a moment the officially lambasted No. 6, but simply made its message more palatable - or perhaps, simply, one which could be missed by the thick-skinned).

Finally, a pre-Soviet work which I'm not sure is 'profound' but which I certainly find deeply moving (and which, btw, Stravinsky loved much to the bemusement of Robert Craft): Violin Concerto No. 1

There are probably other works I should mention, and there's also plenty of other works of Prokofiev's which I find 'moving' without their being profound. But I think no one should think of dismissing him until they know the above works (not that there's any hurry to get to know them - there's so much great music out there by other composers to discover as well...)

[quintett op.57]

addressing profundity, as in depth, depth of intellect, feeling, or meaning. penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding, going far beneath what is superficial, external, or obvious (insight), pervasive or intense; thorough; complete. showing intellectual penetration or emotional depth of the greatest intensity, far-reaching and thorough-going in effect especially on the nature of something (in this case music); extending to great depths...

if this for you means; entertainment, so be it. That's fine. I posed the question for anyone to answer...its open to interpretation, and you can weigh the 2 using whichever criteria you wish or can think of.

allright.
If I were obliged to answer, I'd probably say Stravinsky because Prokofiev has written some easy works, but I'm not sure enough. I won't vote.
I still see no link between profundity and influence, given that I can hear many works whose influence concerned mainly the surface of the works (in my opinion).
The influence of Handel's violin sonata on Beethoven's Kreutzer, for example,or Vivaldi's concertos influence on Bach's.

[not edward]

try Oleg Marshev's recording on Danacord which, IMHO, best captures its emotional depth

Ooh! We have a Joyce Hatto fan here!

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[71 dB]

I am not familiar with most Stravinsky and I haven't heard that many works by Prokofiev either but I'd say Prokofiev.

[Maciek]

It's not hard.

It's actually easier if I split them up into categories:
piano music - I vote Prokofiev
opera - Prokofiev again
ballet - Prokofiev
concertos - Prokofiev once more though Stravinsky's Capriccio is a very strong contender...
chamber music - Stravinsky
orchestral music not intended for the stage - Stravinsky
vocal music (incl. choral and pieces that involve large ensembles but not opera) - Stravinsky

Hmmm... it's almost a tie.

I could split them up in a different way:
composer I've listened to most (of these two) in my life - Prokofiev
composer I've listened to most over the last 2 years - Stravinsky

Oops. It's a tie again! I think I'll end up voting Debussy.

By the way, I visited your fine country a few weeks ago to attend my son's wedding.  It was a 12 hour affair replete with an endless supply of food, musical entertainment and vodka.  Managed to visit Torun where Copernicus lived - very attractive city with helpful citizens.  Not speaking Polish, we needed all the help we could get.

Torun was a great choice - definitely my number one recommendation. I'm glad someone helped you out - I was under the impression hardly anyone speaks English over here.

Next time you visit go to Wieliczka - that would be my number two rec.

[Don]

Torun was a great choice - definitely my number one recommendation. I'm glad someone helped you out - I was under the impression hardly anyone speaks English over here.

Quite a few folks had a decent knowledge of English, but my son's new father-in-law did not.  When we were together, we used sign language to try to communicate, and shots of Vodka also helped.

[Maciek]

Maciek, you think that Prokofiev was more profound in the music he did for Ballet, compared with Stravinsky? Fair enough, but

Well, actually, the ballet category was one I did have second thoughts about (because of Rite of Spring) but only for a short moment. It's all about our personal preferences, remember?

To be frank, I dislike Petrushka and could never really appreciate it for some reason... I like bits of the Firebird, but only bits. Les Noces is another problem-piece - I've given up on it completely now, maybe in a couple of years...? Pulcinella and Apollo are fun but I don't find them that good. I'm not 100% sure if I've ever heard Agon (I certainly haven't got a recording)... So my opinion is this: Stravinsky may have reinvented the genre, even more than once, and I agree that he did present in his ballets an extraordinary variety of music but I still prefer Prokofiev's ballets (of which I'm not sure if I've ever heard: Trapeze, The Prodigal Son and The Tale of the Stone Flower - that's THREE ballets ) ... 0:)

[Maciek]

Quite a few folks had a decent knowledge of English, but my son's new father-in-law did not.  When we were together, we used sign language to try to communicate, and shots of Vodka also helped.

[Maciek]

Interesting hehe...you havent heard much Prokofiev ballets but still...

Ala i Lolli, Chout, Le Pas d'acier, On the Dnieper, Romeo and Juliet, Cinderella - six out of nine is not all that bad! 0:)

Keep listening! Maybe you'll come around to your senses and see the light one day... 0:)

Well, it does seem to be going in that direction, I must admit... 0:)

[greg]

It was inevitable that Ginger would win - an experienced and sexy lady vs. a hayseed who wouldn't know a sexual act if she was watching it.

I sometimes wonder about the true orientation of people who prefer "experienced" and "mature" (especially women with guns) compared to people who prefer ladies who really do act like they have no masculine bone in their body.

[Boris_G]

I sometimes wonder about the true orientation of people who prefer "experienced" and "mature" (especially women with guns) compared to people who prefer ladies who really do act like they have no masculine bone in their body.

Off-topic, but I wonder if hypothetically someone could equally wonder whether somebody who prefers ladies who 'have no masculine bone in their body' (ie infantile) really likes mature ladies at all... 

[scottscheule]

Off-topic, but I wonder if hypothetically someone could equally wonder whether somebody who prefers ladies who 'have no masculine bone in their body' (ie infantile) really likes mature ladies at all... 

I actually quite prefer ladies with a masculine bone in their body. Provided, of course, that it's mine.

[karlhenning]

Profundity became involved after the Copland quote.  I'm not sure whose music was more profound--I'd need a slightly tighter definition and more familiarity with Proke's Piano Sonatas.

Another genre in which I think Prokofiev was arguably "more profound" than Stravinsky, overall, is the concerto.

Igor Fyodorovich's nuanced attitude towards the symphony makes that a dicey arena of comparison;  but since James mentioned the wonderful Concerto per due pianoforti, let me say that I think that the theme and variations of the second movement of Prokofiev's Second Symphony strikes me as perfectly 'comparably profound' to the variations of the Stravinsky Concerto (which, since it is a two-piano work, by the way, was not one of the pieces I had in mind when making the opening remark of comparable concerti.

[BachQ]

Another genre in which I think Prokofiev was arguably "more profound" than Stravinsky, overall, is the concerto.

Without even a glimmer of doubt  ........

[Nick]

No question: Prokofiev.

Why do we give a pass to neo-classicism but never forgive neo-romanticism. Besides, so much of Prokofiev's music is a lot more "progessive" and "modern" than the Stravinsky music.

Chout
Le Pas D'Acier
Prodigal Son
Symphony No.2
Piano Concerto No.2
Fiery Angel
Gambler
Violin Sonata No.1
Piano Sonatas Nos. 6,7,8,9
October Cantata
4 Etudes

not to mention all the "lesser modern" works that are filled with melody. Too much of the time, you see Stravinsky struggling to make interesting compositions when he doesn't have a lot of material. He's often very sure to pound out the beat when he does this (Symphony in 3 Movements, Symphony in C, Sonata) but it's kind of a cheap way to create excitement.

[Nick]

It's good to know I'm not the only one tuned in to this conspiracy.

Stravinsky was a business man. Got Balanchine to choreograph all his ballets. I hate the Stravinsky conspiracy.

[Nick]

Maciek, you think that Prokofiev was more profound in the music he did for Ballet, compared with Stravinsky? Fair enough, but

Stravinsky more any other composer I can think of in the 20th, reinvented that genre over and over again, and it dominates his output...the bejwelled romanticism of Firebird?  the advanced musical devices in Petrushka?, the visceral hard-hitting Rite of Spring with its dissonance and asymetrical rhythms and irregular pulses? the utterly unique raw rhythmic vital Les Noces? the modernist neoclassicism of Pulcinella? the warm and luscious sounding Apollo?...and even the quirky serialism of Agon...? If you take these into account, that's an extraordinary variety, breadth, range and depth of music, invention and expression...

Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet is one of his greatest achievements no doubt, the scope and scale of the work is truly awesome, but...

Chout, Le Pas D'Acier, and Prodigal Son I find all at least as interesting as Petroushka. As for the Firebird? Come on, it's a lot better in its reduced 10 minute version.

[greg]

Off-topic, but I wonder if hypothetically someone could equally wonder whether somebody who prefers ladies who 'have no masculine bone in their body' (ie infantile) really likes mature ladies at all... 

i really don't know how to interpret this....

[karlhenning]

Why do we give a pass to neo-classicism but never forgive neo-romanticism.

I think because neo-classicism was a creative and fresh approach to old material.  When we think of "neo-Romantics" (and Prokofiev was well before their time) the byword seems to be retreat . . . which, as has been aptly observed, is the opposite of the original Romantics, who were all about exploring new musical avenues and, where possible, shaking up the world.

"Neo-Romanticism" is a consciously reactionary stance to "new stuff" in our day, very little of it having the nerve and sinew of (for example) Sibelius, Vaughan Williams or Prokofiev.  To be sure, they all followed their own beat, in some degree of 'defiance' of the 'new currents' of their day;  but in each of these composers' case, there was a 'there' there.