Prokofiev vs. Stravinsky

Started by James, July 05, 2007, 10:19:47 AM

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Who was the more profound musical creator?

Sergei Prokofiev
18 (64.3%)
Igor Stravinsky
10 (35.7%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: July 24, 2007, 10:19:47 AM

lukeottevanger

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 12, 2008, 03:31:25 PM
Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 12, 2008, 03:29:29 PM
No... Only stating the obvious that  P&M  stands apart in a class of its own of sophistication, refinement and exquisite beauty. Most people will never get that.


Then it's not obvious.

I know I've already responded to this, but I think it worth emphasis - this is the fundamental non-sequitur in Eric's position: 'It is obvious that P+M is a class apart. Hardly anyone thinks so.' Take some time to think about that Eric.

As for me, however much you try to put me off P+M by banging on about it, I'm afraid you'll never manage it: I think it's a wonderfully beautiful, subtle work, and it's certainly one of my very favourite operas, FWIW. However, I don't think its 'exquisiteness' puts it in a class apart - there are any number of works equally exquisite, equally sensitive and sensuous (if these are the sorts of adjectives that ppeal to you most). Why limit yourself?

lukeottevanger

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 12, 2008, 03:49:12 PM
James,

Until you become intimately familiar with Debussy's exquisite opera you really should not be making those kinds of statements on Stravinsky.

Am I allowed to make statements about Stravinsky? Because I do know P+M really well, so I think I have the qualifications you're looking for.

(I also know Stravinsky's music too, but that's not so important, of course)

Guido

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 12, 2008, 03:53:12 PM
Then it's not obvious.


I know I've already responded to this, but I think it worth emphasis - this is the fundamental non-sequitur in Eric's position: 'It is obvious that P+M is a class apart. Hardly anyone thinks so.' Take some time to think about that Eric.

As for me, however much you try to put me off P+M by banging on about it, I'm afraid you'll never manage it: I think it's a wonderfully beautiful, subtle work, and it's certainly one of my very favourite operas, FWIW. However, I don't think its 'exquisiteness' puts it in a class apart - there are any number of works equally exquisite, equally sensitive and sensuous (if these are the sorts of adjectives that ppeal to you most). Why limit yourself?

Like Bluebeard's Castle. Listen to it Eric.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

greg

Quote from: Guido on October 12, 2008, 03:55:40 PM
Like Bluebeard's Castle. Listen to it Eric.
Excellent suggestion.

lukeottevanger

That's certainly a work comparable with P+M in many ways, yes. And an equally fine piece, too.

Of course, Eric has set us a very small target, however - his criterion for acceptance of a work as P+M's equal is that the work must be precisely as x, y and z as P+M. Which therefore means P+M and no other work. Which therefore means Eric can keep patting himself on that back, reassuring himself that, yes, he's right, there's nothing quite equal to  P+M. Problem is, in doing so, Eric forgets about a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i and all the other features one could find pleasurable in a piece of music.

So I could recommend pieces and composer to Eric - Takemitsu would be an obvious one. But Takemitsu, for all the extraordinary sensous refinement of his music, didn't write Pelleas et Melisande, and so therefore Eric can happily discard him.

some guy

Pelléas et Mélisande is indeed a lovely piece, and Eric is of course free to like it all he wants, as are we all. Threni is also a lovely piece, and Eric is free to hate that all he likes.

Problems arise when we take our likes and dislikes and make them normative. When we start from what is personal to us, our likes and dislikes, and make them somehow able to describe the quality of the works themselves. And beyond that, to make them shibboleths. That's dangerous.

And it's a danger we are none of us immune to, I fear.

I like the place I've gotten to (though I hesitate to make it the norm for everyone!), where I can enjoy Prokofiev immensely and enjoy Stravinsky immensely without worrying about who is the better composer. Of course, it's Stravinsky, but that knowledge doesn't keep me from enjoying Prokofiev, too. Or Poulenc or Ravel or Shostakovich or Pettersson or any of a thousand composers who aren't in Stravinsky's league.

After all, lesser composers are not only necessary to the development and continuation of music, they're good fun to listen to as well. I might just have to go put William Mayer's Octagon on, just to prove it again, to myself!!

karlhenning

Quote from: some guy on October 12, 2008, 05:03:12 PM
Pelléas et Mélisande is indeed a lovely piece, and Eric is of course free to like it all he wants, as are we all. Threni is also a lovely piece, and Eric is free to hate that all he likes.

Sure.  But hating so much music for no better reason than that it is unlike this one piece that he likes a lot, is so aesthetically primitive.  And he has no idea what a clown he makes himself by claiming aesthetic superiority over, well, anybody.

karlhenning

Quote from: some guy on October 12, 2008, 05:03:12 PM
I like the place I've gotten to (though I hesitate to make it the norm for everyone!), where I can enjoy Prokofiev immensely and enjoy Stravinsky immensely without worrying about who is the better composer.

What are (say) your five favorite Prokofiev works, Michael?

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Guido on October 12, 2008, 04:10:41 PM
The logic is flawless!

Logic bounces off the Ardent Pelleastre like a brick off a steam ship.

We'll never win him over that way. 8)


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

some guy

Quote from: karlhenning on October 12, 2008, 05:16:45 PM
Sure.  But hating so much music for no better reason than that it is unlike this one piece that he likes a lot, is so aesthetically primitive.

No question!

And five favorite Prokofiev works? Too few. I'll start a list and see how many items it turns out to be, OK?

Quintet
Piano sonata no. 7
Piano sonata no. 8
Cello sonata
Sinfonia concertante
Symphony no. 2
Symphony no. 5
Symphony no. 6
Betrothal in a Monastery
Semyon Kotko
War and Peace
Piano concerto no. 2
Piano concerto no. 5
Violin concerto no. 1
Scythian suite
Romeo and Juliet
On the Dneiper
Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution
Alexander Nevsky
Ivan the Terrible
Sinfonietta
Divertimento
The Year 1941 - Symphonic Suite

23's as close as I could get to 5, Karl. I hope that doesn't mean I'm no longer in the band! Anyway, 24 is the highest number, so....

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 13, 2008, 04:10:14 AMNice editing, Eric. Future generations would wonder how I managed to quote something which hadn't yet been posted, if they were ever fool enough to read this thread.  ;D

:)

lukeottevanger

Just listen to Wagner, then. Or some Wagner clone. Debussy ain't one of those.

bhodges

I'll let Luke have the last word on this subject in this thread.  Gentlemen, back to the battle between Sergei and Igor, thank you.  ;)

--Bruce

lukeottevanger

Quote from: bhodges on October 13, 2008, 07:01:45 AM
I'll let Luke have the last word on this subject in this thread.  Gentlemen, back to the battle between Sergei and Igor, thank you.  ;)

--Bruce

Aw, Bruce, I'm sure there's some sort of connection to be made between Eric's diversion-of-choice and the topic of the thread. I'm not sure what it is, mind you.

karlhenning

Quote from: some guy on October 12, 2008, 08:04:19 PM
And five favorite Prokofiev works? Too few. I'll start a list and see how many items it turns out to be, OK?

Quintet
Piano sonata no. 7
Piano sonata no. 8
Cello sonata
Sinfonia concertante
Symphony no. 2
Symphony no. 5
Symphony no. 6
Betrothal in a Monastery
Semyon Kotko
War and Peace
Piano concerto no. 2
Piano concerto no. 5
Violin concerto no. 1
Scythian suite
Romeo and Juliet
On the Dneiper
Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution
Alexander Nevsky
Ivan the Terrible
Sinfonietta
Divertimento
The Year 1941 - Symphonic Suite

23's as close as I could get to 5, Karl. I hope that doesn't mean I'm no longer in the band! Anyway, 24 is the highest number, so....

You've passed the audition, Michael  ;)

karlhenning

'Struth, there's many a piece I wonder you could omit . . . but then, it is only a list of 23 . . . .

A few of pieces on your list I don't believe I've heard yet.  Certainly not Betrothal in a Monastery;  not most of Semyon Kotko . . . excerpts which I heard, on a disc conducted by Järvi, did not impress me much favorably.  Don't think I've heard On the Dniepr at all, and if I've heard the 1941 Suite, it was but once and I need to revisit it.  The Divertimento I don't know at all!  And how could I not like a piece of such a title, by such a composer?

Ah, but that Second Symphony!

The Fifth Concerto eluded me the first I heard it (a recording of Sviatoslav Richter, IIRC) . . . but now I like it very much indeed.

The Second Violin Concerto was the first of the two I heard (we played it at my undergrad college), so it necessarily is first in my affections before the First;  though, in the same spirit as this thread, I just don't see why we could choose but one of the two.

The Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution was a great surprise to me!  I had been expecting a piece which it would be easy to dismiss as 'propaganda', but instead I found a masterly composer answering a public 'call' with music of intelligent craft and great power.

The Tale of the Stone Flower I enjoy every time I visit it, though (like War & Peace), I haven't yet compassed it mentally, quite.

And, when a composer such as Prokofiev has written this much music which is of such excellence, what does it matter if the music is "less important than" any music by any other composer?

So, my list of 23 24 Pieces Which One Regrets You Needed to Omit from Your List of 23:

Petya i Volk
Visions fugitives

Akhmatova Songs
Toccata, Opus 11
First Piano Concerto
Sarcasms for piano
The Ugly Duckling
The Gambler
Chout
Le pas d'acier
L'enfant prodigue

Second Violin Concerto
Cinderella
Piano Sonata No. 6
Fourth Piano Concerto
Sonata for two violins
F Minor Violin Sonata
D Major Violin Sonata
B Minor String Quartet
F Major String Quartet
Pushkin Waltzes
Winter Bonfire, Opus 122
Symphony No. 7
The Tale of the Stone Flower

karlhenning

Of course, between the two of us, we've both omitted the Third Concerto; which is not to say it isn't great music!

some guy

Quote from: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 09:41:34 AM
'Struth, there's many a piece I wonder you could omit . . . but then, it is only a list of 23 . . . .
Hey, you're the one who asked for five. Five!!??!!

Quote from: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 09:41:34 AMA few of pieces on your list I don't believe I've heard yet.  Certainly not Betrothal in a Monastery;  not most of Semyon Kotko . . . excerpts which I heard, on a disc conducted by Järvi, did not impress me much favorably.  Don't think I've heard On the Dniepr at all, and if I've heard the 1941 Suite, it was but once and I need to revisit it.  The Divertimento I don't know at all!  And how could I not like a piece of such a title, by such a composer?

Well, get crackin' then, bucko! Betrothal is for me one of those obsessive pieces, that is, like Kutavicius' Lokys and Stravinsky's Les Noces and L'histoire and Ashley's In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven there were men and women, a piece that once it's done, I can't think of anything else to listen to. And sometimes, I just put it right back on again.

Semyon Kotko is outrageous. Outrageously gorgeous, powerful, moving. You know, for kids!! This is Prokofiev at the height of his powers, I think.

Quote from: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 09:41:34 AMAnd, when a composer such as Prokofiev has written this much music which is of such excellence, what does it matter if the music is "less important than" any music by any other composer?

No argument here.

Quote from: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 09:41:34 AMSo, my list of 23 24 Pieces Which One Regrets You Needed to Omit from Your List of 23:

Petya i Volk
Visions fugitives

Akhmatova Songs
Toccata, Opus 11
First Piano Concerto
Sarcasms for piano
The Ugly Duckling
The Gambler
Chout
Le pas d'acier
L'enfant prodigue

Second Violin Concerto
Cinderella
Piano Sonata No. 6
Fourth Piano Concerto
Sonata for two violins
F Minor Violin Sonata
D Major Violin Sonata
B Minor String Quartet
F Major String Quartet
Pushkin Waltzes
Winter Bonfire, Opus 122
Symphony No. 7
The Tale of the Stone Flower


Well, you did ask for my favorites, after all! If I were making a list of all of Prokofiev's good pieces, most of these would obviously be on that list. And, just by the way, a lot of the items on my list, and a couple on yours, are pieces that use bits and pieces raided from Eugene Onegin, which would be one of my favorites if only there were a complete recorded version of it with all the words in Russian or at least in something other than the rhyming doggerel that Downes thought was worth using in his recording. Pfffft. So yeah. Add Eugene Onegin to my list so we can both have 24, eh? ;D

Yeah. The third piano concerto.... But that would put us over 24. Fuggidahboudit!

karlhenning

Quote from: some guy on October 13, 2008, 10:40:55 AM
Hey, you're the one who asked for five. Five!!??!!

How as I to know you would find the figure as outrageously paltry as do I?

Why, by asking, of course  8)

The Evgeny Onegin, Opus 71 is indeed high on my wanna hear list . . . .

bhodges

And do give Semyon Kotko another go, if the Järvi recording hasn't turned you off completely.  Gergiev's recording of it is superb.  I saw the Kirov production around the time the recording was made, and found it a searing experience.  (Sorry for the small cover photo--all I could find.)

--Bruce