Prokofiev vs. Stravinsky

[karlhenning]

And do give Semyon Kotko another go, if the Järvi recording hasn't turned you off completely.

No, indeed, Bruce! I've learnt about the Järvi factor 

[jowcol]

My response to this is purely subjective, because to me this is a subjective question. Were I to  get to vote on this, I'd probably back Stravinsky, even though I probably listen to more Prokofiev.   One thing I find most fascinating about Stravinsky is the need he had to periodically re-invent himself.  Les Noces, for me, one of the most unique and innovative works of the century-- but rather than stick with that style, Igor kept going.   I can't say that, work for work, his stuff consistently pleases me as much as Prokofiev, that there was a constant evolution and some seismic shifts I don't see in Prokofiev's output.  When someone is constantly trying to push themselves into new areas, some of the works are not going to sound as convincing.  When I think of the jumps from the Firebird to the Soldier's Tale to Les Noces to the Symphony of Psalms to the Ebony Concerto to Agon and to the Flood, I can't help but give him the credit.

The only other 20th composer/musician, IMO  who had reinvented his or herself as much was Miles Davis-- but he had a lot more help in terms of collaborators.

[greg]

'Struth, there's many a piece I wonder you could omit . . . but then, it is only a list of 23 . . . .

A few of pieces on your list I don't believe I've heard yet.  Certainly not Betrothal in a Monastery;  not most of Semyon Kotko . . . excerpts which I heard, on a disc conducted by Järvi, did not impress me much favorably.  Don't think I've heard On the Dniepr at all, and if I've heard the 1941 Suite, it was but once and I need to revisit it.  The Divertimento I don't know at all!  And how could I not like a piece of such a title, by such a composer?

Ah, but that Second Symphony!

The Fifth Concerto eluded me the first I heard it (a recording of Sviatoslav Richter, IIRC) . . . but now I like it very much indeed.

The Second Violin Concerto was the first of the two I heard (we played it at my undergrad college), so it necessarily is first in my affections before the First;  though, in the same spirit as this thread, I just don't see why we could choose but one of the two.

The Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution was a great surprise to me!  I had been expecting a piece which it would be easy to dismiss as 'propaganda', but instead I found a masterly composer answering a public 'call' with music of intelligent craft and great power.

The Tale of the Stone Flower I enjoy every time I visit it, though (like War & Peace), I haven't yet compassed it mentally, quite.

And, when a composer such as Prokofiev has written this much music which is of such excellence, what does it matter if the music is "less important than" any music by any other composer?

So, my list of 23 24 Pieces Which One Regrets You Needed to Omit from Your List of 23:

Petya i Volk
Visions fugitives
Akhmatova Songs
Toccata, Opus 11
First Piano Concerto
Sarcasms for piano
The Ugly Duckling
The Gambler
Chout
Le pas d'acier
L'enfant prodigue
Second Violin Concerto
Cinderella
Piano Sonata No. 6
Fourth Piano Concerto
Sonata for two violins
F Minor Violin Sonata
D Major Violin Sonata
B Minor String Quartet
F Major String Quartet
Pushkin Waltzes
Winter Bonfire, Opus 122
Symphony No. 7
The Tale of the Stone Flower

You haven't heard the Divertimento?

then get this disc:


It also has the Symphonic Song (which, after many listens, I've decided isn't that good), a work that has only been recorded once on (this) CD. And if you haven't herad the orchestrated version of the Andante from the 4th Sonata, you're really missing out!
(i have a strong feeling you'd like the Divertimento, too, btw)

[some guy]

(You know what I mean.)

Very titanically.

Can it be nearly 35 years since I bought that Cramps lp -- 1975?

Probably! I didn't get mine until the late nineties (arrested development, probably), but I enjoyed it thoroughly, and have a CD burn of it and the commercial CD as well.

Bonus: Only recently did I learn the Wolgamot poem ultimately came to Ashley through a second-hand bookstore in the small town in Illinois where I was born and lived in the '50s.

How cool is that?

I hope you like the Kutavicius. I'm days away from flying to Vilnius for the Gaida festival, where they've promised us a new piece by him. Should be good times, regardless.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Anyway...

Karl,

I'd go along with the others in gently urging you not to give up on either Betrothal in a Monastery or Semyon Kotko. There are rewards galore in these scores and it might simply be Järvi that's holding back enjoyment for you. Or not, but I do feel there's something to be had for the dedicated Prokofiev fan in these works.

The complete recordings with Gergiev at the helm (on Philips) make a good case for this music.

[not edward]

You haven't heard the Divertimento?

then get this disc:


It also has the Symphonic Song (which, after many listens, I've decided isn't that good), a work that has only been recorded once on (this) CD. And if you haven't herad the orchestrated version of the Andante from the 4th Sonata, you're really missing out!
(i have a strong feeling you'd like the Divertimento, too, btw)

I'd give a thumbs up to this disc, too. I think it's one of Jarvi's better efforts in Prokofiev and three of the four works on it are barely ever recorded.

(I've not listened to the Enfant on this disc in a while, but I remember it being unexpectedly good.)

[karlhenning]

I'd give a thumbs up to this disc, too. I think it's one of Jarvi's better efforts in Prokofiev and three of the four works on it are barely ever recorded.

(I've not listened to the Enfant on this disc in a while, but I remember it being unexpectedly good.)

Thanks, Greg & Edward.  So much of the Järvi juggernaut whose destination was the Prokofiev Centenary, I remember being so disappointingly throwaway . . . but the chap does have talent, and the best of that effort must be decent.  (I just gave up serving as the guinea pig to search them out ; )

[Pierre]

get this disc:


It also has the Symphonic Song (which, after many listens, I've decided isn't that good), a work that has only been recorded once on (this) CD.

Alas, it isn't that good a performance - it sounds pretty convincingly to my ears as if the orchestra is sight reading the music. I'm sure another conductor can make a more compelling case for it. But I agree, on the other hand, that the Prodigal Son gets a pretty decent performance.

[karlhenning]

Listened to Agon twice last night;  love it!

[Nick]

I'm going to try to go through their major works after having really studied all of them in detail recently. I just can't see why anyone would think that Stravinsky contributed more great works. I've put an X next the pieces that I think are objectively the stronger pieces.

Second Piano Concerto   Rite of Spring X
Chout                          Firebird X
Fiery Angel X                Petrushka
War Sonatas X              Persephone
Cinderella X                 Nightengale
Symphony No. 2           Symphony in 3 Movements X
War and Peace X          Cantata
Quintet X                    Concerto in D
Romeo and Juliet X       Symphony of Psalms
Sarcasms, Visions Fugitives X Symphony in C
Le Pas d'Acier X            Octet
On the Dnieper             Orpheus X
Classical Symphony X    Capriccio for piano and Orchestra
Third Piano Concerto X   Concerto for 2 pianos
Piano Sonata No. 2 X   Serenade
Sinfonietta X              Suites for Orchestra
Prodigal Son X            Septet
Alexander Nevsky       Agon X
Sonatinas X               Sonata
Fifth Symphony X       Concerto for piano, wind instruments
October Cantata X      Oedipus Rex
First Violin Concerto X  Scherzo fantastique
First Violin Sonata       Les Noces X
Peter and the Wolf X   Ode
Love for Three Oranges X Rake's Progress
Divertissment, Choses en Sol X Sonata for 2 pianos
Sixth Symphony X        Renard
Lieutenant Kije X        Mavra
Scythian Suite           Mass X
Sonata for 2 violins X Duo Concertante
Piano Sonata No. 9 X  Ebony Concerto
Fifth Piano Concerto X Symphony of Wind Instruments
Cinq Melodies X        Four Norweigian Moods
Tocatta X                Circus Polka
Ivan the Terrible X    Dumbarton Oaks
First Piano Concerto   Soldier's Tale X
Second String Quartet Violin Concerto X
Symphonic Song X     Danses Concertates
Thoughts X               Three Pieces for String Quartet

Does this seem unfair to anyone?

[T-C]

Does this seem unfair to anyone?

I will definitely add a X to Prokofiev's Second Piano Concerto and to his Alexander Nevsky cantata ...

[karlhenning]

Many Stravinsky works on your list which are stronger than you reckon them, as well.  (Fair disclosure: I'm already on record as refusing to have to choose between these two great composers.)

[greg]

I think there's some odd comparisons there, but...
i've noticed some of the very minor Stravinsky works I've listened to are pretty much horrible... can't say the same for any Prokofiev I've ever heard, minus maybe 3 or so that just make me feel indifferent.

[karlhenning]

I think there's some odd comparisons there, but...
i've noticed some of the very minor Stravinsky works I've listened to are pretty much horrible... can't say the same for any Prokofiev I've ever heard, minus maybe 3 or so that just make me feel indifferent.

Question . . .

[Nick]

Well, even though I think the Piano Concerto No. 2, Op.16 is Prokofiev's best work, I'll concede that Rite of Spring is stronger.

I have the utmost respect for Persephone, and I think it's one of Stravinsky's best works. That's why I've put it in the same league as the War Sonatas.

I might say the same for the Nightengale. A truly beautiful work, though pundits might call it less "modern" than the Gambler.

As some of you have said as well, I have a lot of respect for Agon. That's why I marked it as a stronger work than even Alexander Nevsky, Op.78, but it's a tight horse race here.

I do not, however, have a lot of respect for the Rake's Progress. It doesn't have distinctive Stravinsky rhythm to say nothing of melody.

I'm not particularly impressed by Symphony of Wind Instruments vis a vis its reputation. There are orchestral touches that bring me back to Rite of Spring, but it's an atmospheric piece more than a substantive one.

On the Dnieper, Op.51 and Orpheus are close matchups. But I gave the edge to Orpheus.

Another close matchup is the Symphony No.1 "Classical," Op.25 and the Capriccio for piano and orchestra.

On another note, I can't put Pulcinella and Fairy's Kiss up there for Stravinsky works. Pulcinella borrows from 21 different baroque pieces because there's 21 movements. Similarly, Fairy's Kiss quotes from almost two dozen different Tchaikovsky pieces. And most of these translations are literal. They cross the line into the arrangement category.

As for other pieces that didn't get worked in here . . .

On the Prokofiev side, there's the Four Etudes, Op.2; Overture on Hebrew Themes, Op.34; March, Op.99; Four Pieces, Op.4; Betrothal in a Monastery, Op.86; Music for Children, Op.65, and works like the Sinfonia Concertante, Op.125; Violin Concerto No.2, Op.63 [I don't have a lot of respect for this piece]; Seven, They are Seven [Not a great work, and more atmospheric than substantive, and akin to Stravinsky's Star-Face], and the lieder.

On the Stravinsky side, there's Requiem Canticles [I just don't think that highly of this work despite its reputation]; Threni [Same]; Abraham and Isaac [I'm not enamored of this work]; A Sermon, A Narrative, and a Prayer [I'm not crazy about this]; The Flood [Does anyone really like this work?]; Scenes de Ballet [Lovely short piece with rhythmic interest and a nice "out west" melody]; and the lieder.

I wonder which matchups you think are too generous to Prokofiev, Karl?

[karlhenning]

Goodness, those were "match-ups"?  Whatever for?

[Nick]

This whole blog is so totally subjective that I took it to its extreme. I looked at the subjective quality on a piece by pieces basis.

On the other hand, this doesn't stop the All Music Guide (AMG), the Columbia Encyclopedia of Music; Anthony Tommasini of the New York Times; and a lot of other sources from calling Stravinsky the "greatest composer of the 20th century."

The trouble is that Stravinsky is the American hometown hero, and the cold war decimated Prokofiev's reputation here in the states.

[karlhenning]

This whole blog is so totally subjective that I took it to its extreme. I looked at the subjective quality on a piece by pieces basis.

Okay.

On the other hand, this doesn't stop the All Music Guide (AMG), the Columbia Encyclopedia of Music; Anthony Tommasini of the New York Times; and a lot of other sources from calling Stravinsky the "greatest composer of the 20th century."

Well, I see neither the possibility nor the need to designate a single greatest composer of the 20th century.  In defense of the above, though, there is a case to be made for Stravinsky.

The trouble is that Stravinsky is the American hometown hero, and the cold war decimated Prokofiev's reputation here in the states.

Both parts of that sentence strike me as simplifications.  And the truth of the two composers is so much more interesting.

[Nick]

An oversimplification in what sense? Do you deny (1) that Stravinsky is more respected in the US than Prokofiev, and that (2) Prokofiev is more respected in Russia than Stravinsky? Are you suggesting that geography doesn't play a major role in these tastes? Prokofiev biographer Harlow Robinson has often posed this issue.

During the cold war, there were many government officials in the US with full-time jobs to devalue Soviet realist art, and there were certainly enough Soviet counterparts in Russia.

[karlhenning]

An oversimplification in what sense?

In the sense of reducing the matter to a simplicity which does not do justice to either artist.