General Harpsichord and Clavichord Thread

[Que]

Anyway returning to Gaultier or Mouton's La Belle Homicide, the problem I have with que's  explanation is seeing how eroticism is reflected in the music. I'm beginning to think that Que was too quick to draw the conclusion, unless someone can convince me that there's something in the music which ties it to orgasm.

And I don't follow you in your conclusion that the concept of a fatal (deadly) love would be reflected in the music by means eroticism and association with an orgasm?  

What about pain, sorrow, yearning, heartache and remorse....?

Q

[Mandryka]

And I don't follow you in your conclusion that the concept of a fatal (deadly) love would be reflected in the music by means eroticism and association with an orgasm?  

What about pain, sorrow, yearning, heartache and remorse....?

Q

Just because I have really clear recollection of my teacher in school (who had a doctorate on Shakespeare) saying that for Shakespeare, Marlowe, Donne, Johnson etc. orgasm was a sort of death, he didn't say that yearning is a sort of death etc. I never studied this after the age of 17, so my knowledge is pretty limited.

I also have a vague memory that they thought that sneezing was either a sort of orgasm or a sort of death . . . Sneezing is involved in this stuff.

[North Star]

Just because I have really clear recollection of my teacher in school (who had a doctorate on Shakespeare) saying that for Shakespeare, Marlowe, Donne, Johnson etc. orgasm was a sort of death, he didn't say that yearning is a sort of death etc. I never studied this after the age of 17, so my knowledge is pretty limited.

I also have a vague memory that they thought that sneezing was either a sort of orgasm or a sort of death . . . Sneezing is involved in this stuff.

Yes, that's what death often referred to in poetry... see e.g. this song by John Dryden from the play Marriage-à-la-Mode...

WHILST Alexis lay prest   
  In her Arms he lov'd best,   
With his hands round her neck,   
  And his head on her breast,   
He found the fierce pleasure too hasty to stay,           5
And his soul in the tempest just flying away.   

2
When Cœlia saw this,   
With a sigh, and a kiss,   
She cry'd, Oh my dear, I am robb'd of my bliss;   
'Tis unkind to your Love, and unfaithfully done,           10
To leave me behind you, and die all alone.   

3
The Youth, though in haste,   
And breathing his last,   
In pity dy'd slowly, while she dy'd more fast;   
Till at length she cry'd, Now, my dear, now let us go,           15
Now die, my Alexis, and I will die too.   

3
Thus intranc'd they did lie,   
Till Alexis did try   
To recover new Breath, that again he might die:   
Then often they di'd; but the more they did so,           20
The Nymph dy'd more quick, and the Shepherd more slow.

[Mandryka]

Death.  Which is why we say "bless you" after someone sneezes.

I too am familiar with the idea of linking love/sexual organism with death, viz. Wagner's Liebestod and much of Tristan und Isolde, is a famous manifestation of the idea.  I think it is the idea that, especially for a love which cannot be realized, in death can the lovers only be united, and also, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, loss of consciousness through orgasm is a kind of "death".

There's certainly a link between love and death in Tristan, not between sex and death.

[Mandryka]

Oh, come on.  You must be aware of how the music been described as one long build up to orgasm.  Love/sex/death is the subconscious message of the entire opera.

Let me just try and say it again more clearly, in Tristan Wagner tries to make  a link between love and death, not as far as  recall between sex and death. But if I'm wrong, and it's years since I heard the opera, just explain the link between sex and death for me.

I know the music's orgasmic, visceral, passionate. Tristan is a chivalrous knight and Isolde is betrothed to his lord. Are you suggesting that they were having it off? 

[bioluminescentsquid]

There's also a piece in the 24th Ordre of F. Couperin that's titled "les dars-homicdes" - but I'm listening to Verlet's recording of it, and it seems like a careless/dainty little piece, rather unlike Gaultier's piece a generation earlier. So, is the title also an allusion to love/sex? (I can't find a translation of "dars" in French, either)

[bioluminescentsquid]

No, it was unconsummated, but the tension of a desire which cannot be fulfilled (as you said she was betrothed to his lord and thus off limits) is what is driving the drama, at least that has been my understanding of the work.  I think Wagner was representing their passion in teh[sic] music, which you accurately describe as "orgasmic, visceral, passionate".

I'm not as knowledgeable as either of you on such matters, but I can offer up a small excerpt from the wikipedia page of "liebestod" (which is German for Love-death, as we know from Tristian/Isolde) A bit lacking in citations, though - and didn't Romeo and Juliet already consummate their love before Romeo left to Mantua?

When used as a literary term, liebestod (from German Liebe, love and Tod, death) refers to the theme of erotic death or "love death" meaning the two lovers' consummation of their love in death or after death. Other two-sided examples include Pyramus and Thisbe, Romeo and Juliet, and to some degree Wuthering Heights. One-sided examples are Porphyria's Lover and The Sorrows of Young Werther. The joint suicide of Heinrich von Kleist and lover Henriette Vogel is often associated with the Liebestod theme.

[bioluminescentsquid]

All sex and musical erotica aside...
Just listened to the first part of this:


Probably will write more extensive impressions later (and I find that most discs require a few spins before I make heads or tails), but I feel rather ambivalent about this issue: the playing is fine (will comment on it when I make myself more familiar), but ugh, the recording!

I know this harpsichord from the recordings of Verlet, and it's quite a nice one, with a drier, leaner, more Italianate sound that seems like a hold-over from the days before the Ruckers-style took over in France (not one that I would normally associate with Rameau, but I believe that Rameau knew this maker personally, and Jean Rondeau uses a similar instrument to great effect, so I can't complain). But the recording seems to be taken from further, in a large space, rather like what one would expect when hearing a harpsichord in a concert hall with sub-optimal acoustics - and the harpsichord loses quite a lot of character, sounding like a cross between a dull Ruckers and an organ.


(it fittingly has a picture of some putti busily fan-boying a portrait Rameau on it!  )

Well, the case is still open - I'll listen to vol. 2 another day.

[Mandryka]

All sex and musical erotica aside...
Just listened to the first part of this:


Probably will write more extensive impressions later (and I find that most discs require a few spins before I make heads or tails), but I feel rather ambivalent about this issue: the playing is fine (will comment on it when I make myself more familiar), but ugh, the recording!

I know this harpsichord from the recordings of Verlet, and it's quite a nice one, with a drier, leaner, more Italianate sound that seems like a hold-over from the days before the Ruckers-style took over in France (not one that I would normally associate with Rameau, but I believe that Rameau knew this maker personally, and Jean Rondeau uses a similar instrument to great effect, so I can't complain). But the recording seems to be taken from further, in a large space, rather like what one would expect when hearing a harpsichord in a concert hall with sub-optimal acoustics - and the harpsichord loses quite a lot of character, sounding like a cross between a dull Ruckers and an organ.


(it fittingly has a picture of some putti busily fan-boying a portrait Rameau on it!  )

Well, the case is still open - I'll listen to vol. 2 another day.

In fact I like this one because the rubato's so sensual, and I think the harpsichord sounds cool in the high notes, which cut through the sound like botrytis in premier cru Sauternes. She's also recorded some Clerambault, which is well worth catching I think.

[bioluminescentsquid]

I think this one's a hit!
I've known la Guerre, one of the rare female composers of the Baroque era for quite some time, and absentmindedly made my way through some albums of harpsichord and violin music without being impressed.
But oh my, under the hands of Verlet, a very sympathetic performer, the music is marvelous!

Let's start from the recording - I really love how the Colmar Ruckers is recorded here, which captures the "Flemish sound" , with the wiry but lyrical trebles and the luminous bass (I've actually always thought that relatively unaltered Flemish harpsichords sounded exactly like 18th century French ones until I heard Hogwood's recording of Louis Couperin, performed on a Couchet), very well.
And they don't forget to leave out the occasional sounds of birds chirping, a touch that I adore. There's a noise in the prelude of the 1st suite (1707), however, which freaked me out the first time I heard it on headphones, as I thought it was someone was calling my name!

Then, the music - although it might not be as technically complex as Froberger's or Louis Couperin's (I haven't listened to much D'Anglebert or Chambonneries, as I haven't found a sympathetic performer), it certainly has the same emotional depth and poignancy of their works. There are quite a lot of haunting little Baroque dances on this disc - and while the first set (1687) of course reminds me of Froberger and L. Couperin, the second starts to seem to have have a little F. Couperin in it (and perhaps even a bit of Forqueray?).

(I hope these comments make up for the unenthusiastic impression I gave to Verlet's partitas)

[Mandryka]

I think this one's a hit!
I've known la Guerre, one of the rare female composers of the Baroque era for quite some time, and absentmindedly made my way through some albums of harpsichord and violin music without being impressed.
But oh my, under the hands of Verlet, a very sympathetic performer, the music is marvelous!

Let's start from the recording - I really love how the Colmar Ruckers is recorded here, which captures the "Flemish sound" , with the wiry but lyrical trebles and the luminous bass (I've actually always thought that relatively unaltered Flemish harpsichords sounded exactly like 18th century French ones until I heard Hogwood's recording of Louis Couperin, performed on a Couchet), very well.
And they don't forget to leave out the occasional sounds of birds chirping, a touch that I adore. There's a noise in the prelude of the 1st suite (1707), however, which freaked me out the first time I heard it on headphones, as I thought it was someone was calling my name!

Then, the music - although it might not be as technically complex as Froberger's or Louis Couperin's (I haven't listened to much D'Anglebert or Chambonneries, as I haven't found a sympathetic performer), it certainly has the same emotional depth and poignancy of their works. There are quite a lot of haunting little Baroque dances on this disc - and while the first set (1687) of course reminds me of Froberger and L. Couperin, the second starts to seem to have have a little F. Couperin in it (and perhaps even a bit of Forqueray?).

(I hope these comments make up for the unenthusiastic impression I gave to Verlet's partitas)

You may also like her Louis Marchand LP.

[bioluminescentsquid]

You may also like her Louis Marchand LP.

I know the Marchand recording (I'm listening to it right now), but I still like the de la Guerre CD more - I guess it's because I like the style of the latter more (More introspective, and really reminds me of the style of Froberger, L. Couperin etc.). But they're both great.

[Mandryka]

I know the Marchand recording (I'm listening to it right now), but I still like the de la Guerre CD more - I guess it's because I like the style of the latter more (More introspective, and really reminds me of the style of Froberger, L. Couperin etc.). But they're both great.

I probably agree with you about this, in truth I've never really enjoyed Louis Marchand's Harpsichord music as much as his organ music (and that solely through Freddy Eichelberger's recording.) I'm not a great lover of French classicism in fact, though I get the strong feeling that EJDLG was a very fine composer.

[Mandryka]

I think Karen Flint's EJDLG is well worth hearing - I'm now convinced that the music is outstanding, she was a great keyboard composer.

[bioluminescentsquid]

I think Karen Flint's EJDLG is well worth hearing - I'm now convinced that the music is outstanding, she was a great keyboard composer.

Just curious - how do you think of Chambonnières? I've been so focused on Louis Couperin that I haven't heard much of Chambonnières. Any outstanding recordings?

[Mandryka]

Just curious - how do you think of Chambonnières? I've been so focused on Louis Couperin that I haven't heard much of Chambonnières. Any outstanding recordings?

In Chambonnières the recording that has impressed me the most, convinced me that the music is really fine, is Volume 2 of Karen Flint's second survey, this one

http://www.plectra.org/product-page/da13feda-83be-6451-e26a-5411642333d4


This is her latest issue and I think she's really found her voice in it. One issue in interpreting Chambonnières is striking a balance between lyrical flow on the one hand, and the interruption of  lyricism by other voices on the other. Flow and turbulence. In this recording, she has shown she's got the knack.

[bioluminescentsquid]

In Chambonnières the recording that has impressed me the most, convinced me that the music is really fine, is Volume 2 of Karen Flint's second survey, this one

http://www.plectra.org/product-page/da13feda-83be-6451-e26a-5411642333d4


This is her latest issue and I think she's really found her voice in it. One issue in interpreting Chambonnières is striking a balance between lyrical flow on the one hand, and the interruption of  lyricism by other voices on the other. Flow and turbulence. In this recording, she has shown she's got the knack.

Thanks - I should explore that label more, especially since it's free of spotify - for some reason I was quite prejudiced against it.

The quality, it seems, is somewhat uneven - Flint's contributions are wonderful, and so are Davitt Moroney's, but then there's the rather half-baked sounding Bach Harpsichord concertos.

[Mandryka]

Thanks - I should explore that label more, especially since it's free of spotify - for some reason I was quite prejudiced against it.

The quality, it seems, is somewhat uneven - Flint's contributions are wonderful, and so are Davitt Moroney's, but then there's the rather half-baked sounding Bach Harpsichord concertos.

Unfortunately the very good Chambonnières recordings by Flint aren't on spotify, be careful because the covers look so similar. The ones on spotify are earlier. The other thing to say is that I think much of the music on that vol. 2 of her second series that I gave a link to has never been previously recorded, and I'd say it's a lot of his best music too.

[Mandryka]

Thanks - I should explore that label more, especially since it's free of spotify - for some reason I was quite prejudiced against it.

The quality, it seems, is somewhat uneven - Flint's contributions are wonderful, and so are Davitt Moroney's, but then there's the rather half-baked sounding Bach Harpsichord concertos.

Maybe see what you think of Arthur Haas's passionate EJDLG suite on Plectra. I think his D'Anglebert CD for Wildboar is fabulous.

[Que]

Just curious - how do you think of Chambonnières? I've been so focused on Louis Couperin that I haven't heard much of Chambonnières. Any outstanding recordings?

[asin]B00015EL7M[/asin]

A great, no, a fantastic performance! 

Q