Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?

[jowcol]

The issues I've seen is with the deva and other spiritual rather than theistic beliefs bothering some committed agnostics and theists. Personally I just find it all fairly interesting though I badly need to read more about it.

There has been discussion on another thread you may wish to check out.  A short answer is that Buddhism does not discourage other faiths/beliefs if they lead towards enlightenment, but the Buddha was avoided excess speculation about the afterlife, etc. 

Anyway--  if you wish to pursue this further, I'd go to this thread here...


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19529.0.html

[Ataraxia]

The issues I've seen is with the deva and other spiritual rather than theistic beliefs bothering some committed agnostics and theists. Personally I just find it all fairly interesting though I badly need to read more about it.

Try poking around here. Tons of free info.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/

[nesf]

Thanks guys.

[BobsterLobster]

Hmm... coming next... watching TV for meditation.

[BobsterLobster]

I should add that when I did a Vipashana course, one of my main problems was turning off the music in my head which burst into life after a few days and distracted me from my meditation.
Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation, so what is the difference with music?!

[Ataraxia]

An interesting topic to google, Bobster.

The fewer distractions the better for newbies.

[PaulSC]

Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation,

Is that true?

[nesf]

Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation, so what is the difference with music?!

Well to start, define valid and worthwhile. What are your goals with meditation and similar. Mindful living is somewhat different to formal meditative practice both are applications of meditation techniques though.

Edit: Actually defining meditation would be the start. I'd go with a scientific definition of the brain being in a particular state. You might have quite a different one and we'd both end up with quite different opinion on what is and what is not meditation.

[Karl Henning]

I could just about see watching a film meditationally.  Would perhaps depend upon the tone of the film, and off the top of my head, I should think that a movie which I have already seen a few times would be more conducive . . . but I should not call the act at all impossible.

[nesf]

I could just about see watching a film meditationally.  Would perhaps depend upon the tone of the film, and off the top of my head, I should think that a movie which I have already seen a few times would be more conducive . . . but I should not call the act at all impossible.

I'd see it as possible to actively watch a film and pay attention to all the stimuli in watching it as at the very least approaching a meditative state. This isn't watching a film in the sense I think BobsterLobster means though I imagine.

Edit: I should say that I'm not sure if it'd be possible to follow the story or anything in what I describe above.

[PaulSC]

Actually defining meditation would be the start. I'd go with a scientific definition of the brain being in a particular state.

Rhode Island?

[Josquin des Prez]

The issues I've seen is with the deva and other spiritual rather than theistic beliefs bothering some committed agnostics and theists. Personally I just find it all fairly interesting though I badly need to read more about it.

The problem with theist religions is not that they are theist per-se, but that they are overtly exoteric. I don't want to derail this thread, but if you are curious try to look for perennial philosophers like Guenon, Schuon and Martin Lings. You'll see there exist a lot of common elements among all major religions, and that from an esoteric point of view they all tend to resemble Indian religions such as Buddhism. Sufism for instance is exactly such a case, and is a good example considering the insane level of exoteric dogmatism which plagues the Muslim world. 

[Karl Henning]

Would it be a matter of the brain being in a particular state, or of its performong certain operations? Or of non-performance? (I could qualify there, I think . . . .)

[nesf]

Rhode Island?

[Josquin des Prez]

This form of meditation is all about just focusing on your present action and not letting your mind wander. So in this case it's about focusing intently on the music, listening actively and keeping bringing your mind back when it wanders. To take great notice of the experience of listening, the feeling of the bass notes, the way a note fades slowly and so on. As I said originally, I imagine a lot of you are doing this anyway when you listen to music! Other forms of meditation are very different.

I suppose what you are referring to has more to do with concentration then meditation as understood in a typical sense. In that respect, i tend to favor contrapuntal music the most, such as is the case with the Renaissance masters, Bach, or even late artists like Brahms or Enescu. The effort required to comprehend this music has an almost purifying effect on my mind.

[nesf]

Would it be a matter of the brain being in a particular state, or of its performong certain operations? Or of non-performance? (I could qualify there, I think . . . .)

From my understanding there's a fair amount of evidence that the brain has two basic modes of operation, one dealing with awareness of the environment and one dealing with thought, analysis and so on. With mindfulness you are purposefully putting your mind into the first mode and work to keep it there. The reason this is so helpful for depression, stress, pain relief etc is that all of these are worse when the brain is in the latter mode.

This is all from psychology sources not traditional sources, so the above may not be agreed upon by someone coming from the latter starting point.

I suppose what you are referring to has more to do with concentration then meditation as understood in a typical sense. In that respect, i tend to favor contrapuntal music the most, such as is the case with the Renaissance masters, Bach, or even late artists like Brahms or Enescu. The effort required to comprehend this music has an almost purifying effect on my mind.

What do you understand to be meditation? (curious)

[Karl Henning]

From my understanding there's a fair amount of evidence that the brain has two basic modes of operation, one dealing with awareness of the environment and one dealing with thought, analysis and so on. With mindfulness you are purposefully putting your mind into the first mode and work to keep it there. The reason this is so helpful for depression, stress, pain relief etc is that all of these are worse when the brain is in the latter mode.

This is all from psychology sources not traditional sources, so the above may not be agreed upon by someone coming from the latter starting point.

Thanks.

[nesf]

Thanks.

Kind of stuff I'm reading about it at the moment: http://www.wisebrain.org/papers/MindfulnessPsyTx.pdf

Most of the stuff I know about this comes from psychologists telling me about it rather than seeing the papers myself. Trying to rectify this but a) no journal access anymore and b) depressed at the moment so concentration isn't the best.

[jowcol]

I should add that when I did a Vipashana course, one of my main problems was turning off the music in my head which burst into life after a few days and distracted me from my meditation.
Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation, so what is the difference with music?!

It is said the sound is the hardest sensory input to tune out while meditating.  All the harder to turn of the music that plays in ones head.  At least in my case, that is VERY hard.

[jowcol]

I suppose what you are referring to has more to do with concentration then meditation as understood in a typical sense. In that respect, i tend to favor contrapuntal music the most, such as is the case with the Renaissance masters, Bach, or even late artists like Brahms or Enescu. The effort required to comprehend this music has an almost purifying effect on my mind.

Another possible definition is to lose the sense of one's normal temporal "self"-- ideally this would occur after the concentration.  Much as one is to start by focusing on one's breathing in traditional meditation, it is a tool that lets one reach a point where the awareness of the self no longer gets in they way.  If you are no longer concentrating on  the music-- but "being the music"

I was on a mailing list for an improvisational rock band I like, and one person posted that the reason he liked the group so much was that he could pass out during an song and wake up while it was still playing.  Which is sort of the experience I have-- minus the substance abuse...