Mystery and reason in religion and life--a ruminative essay

[RebLem]

I recently saw the word "latitudinarian" in a post by a friend in another forum.   I didn't know what it meant.  I have seen it before, and had always, out of laziness, skimmed over it, and tried to get a sense of what was being spoken of from textual and contextual clues. This time, I looked it up, and found a very interesting Wikipedia article, which I commend to the attention of all. A little tip: read the last paragraph first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitudinarian

I would like to amplify what that poster said about the adoption of many latitudinarian attitudes and practices by the Roman Catholic Church.   When I was going to Catholic school (grades 1-8, Sept. 1948-June 1956), we got the old, unreconstructed Pius XII version of Catholicism. The Protestant construction "Peace on Earth, good will to men," was attacked as namby pamby and too non-judgmental and discriminating. It was supposed to be "Peace on Earth to men of good will," meaning that there were personal moral prerequisites to peace. Now, the Catholic Church has adopted the Protestant practice in this regard; frankly, I see more sense in the old practice on this particular point than in the new one.

Another one that made less of a difference was that Catholic practice eliminated the last sentence of the Protestant Lord's Prayer, which Catholics generally called "The Our Father," after its first two words. "For Thine if the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory, Forever," was said to have originated not with the Biblical text, but with a marginal expalnatory note by some medieval scribe. Now, the Catholic Church has adopted that last sentence.

However, the Catholic Church still uses trespasses instead of debts in the text of the prayer. This particularly appeals to American Catholics; Americans are probably second only to the Swiss in their reluctance to forgive debts. In the Fifties, we were taught to have a special place in our hearts for Finland, even though they are mostly Lutheran, because they were the only European country which had paid their WWI debts to the US in full. And besides, trespass is a broader word than debt. It covers more territory, and is probably more doctrinally correct. But Protestants adopted debt instead, mostly, I think, because it is more conducive to communal singing (or any kind of singing, for that matter) than trespasses. They sacrificed doctrinal rigor for aesthetics, and left the details to Sunday School classes.

I try not to put down traditional religion as much as many skeptics do. The reason is simple. Its Christian mainline manifestations, at least, are generally more acceptable than the alternatives. The human psyche has this perverse need for irrationality and mystery; if people fail to find religious mystery acceptable, they turn to things that are far worse, like astrology, tarot, "crystal power," "pyramid power," and, God forbid, Shirley MacLaine seminars. Mainline Christianity, at least, tends to put its mysteries in a lead box and not allow it to irradiate our rational approach to non-religious matters. Astrology, tarot, and these other secular mystical systems tend, by contrast,  to invade every aspect of our thought, like the way grits so insidiously contaminate the taste of eggs.
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[Mark G. Simon]

And besides, trespass is a broader word than debt. It covers more territory, and is probably more doctrinally correct. But Protestants adopted debt instead, mostly, I think, because it is more conducive to communal singing (or any kind of singing, for that matter) than trespasses. They sacrificed doctrinal rigor for aesthetics, and left the details to Sunday School classes.

"Trespasses" has too many "s"s. A congregation saying "forgive us our trespasses as we forvige those who trespass against us" sounds like a pit of hissing snakes.

[Hector]

Religion was the BIG ISHOO in 17th century England.

It forced certain Puritans to live abroad and ended in a Civil War and a King losing his head.

After that it died down a bit with one blip when King Billy beat the Catholic King James in Ulster.

I was brought up in a 'Low' Cof E household. We always considered High Church a tad to close to Rome for comfort.

Religions are all tosh, of course.

[Xenophanes]

The New Jerusalem Bible provides the following translation of Luke 2:14 in the text:

"Glory to God in the highest heaven,
and on earth peace for those he favours."

In the notes, it rejects the 'traditional' translation (based on the Latin Vulgate), still found in various carols, and offers another "less probable" one:

"Peace on earth and God's favour towards men."

If you kick around the Bible Gateway site (unfortunately, I don't think they have the very best translations), I think you will find the sort of translation preferred in the NJB for this text is widely accepted. I like this French version of the text:

"Gloire à Dieu au plus haut des cieux!
      Et paix sur la terre aux hommes qu'il aime."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%202:14;&version=32;

[RebLem]

I like this French version of the text:

"Gloire à Dieu au plus haut des cieux!
      Et paix sur la terre aux hommes qu'il aime."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%202:14;&version=32;

Just for jollies, I put that quote through Babelfish.  It came out as

Glory with God with highest of the skies! And peace on the ground with the men whom he loves.

[Maciek]

However, the Catholic Church still uses trespasses instead of debts in the text of the prayer.

IIRC, the Greek word which appears in the original does not appear anywhere else - not in any of the ancient Greek texts that are available to us today. So it is rather a moot point...

But I may be mixing things up...

[Topaz]

When I was going to Catholic school (grades 1-8, Sept. 1948-June 1956), we got the old, unreconstructed Pius XII version of Catholicism. The Protestant construction "Peace on Earth, good will to men," was attacked as namby pamby and too non-judgmental and discriminating. It was supposed to be "Peace on Earth to men of good will," meaning that there were personal moral prerequisites to peace. Now, the Catholic Church has adopted the Protestant practice in this regard; frankly, I see more sense in the old practice on this particular point than in the new one.

....

Another one that made less of a difference was that Catholic practice eliminated the last sentence of the Protestant Lord's Prayer, which Catholics generally called "The Our Father," after its first two words. "For Thine if the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory, Forever," was said to have originated not with the Biblical text, but with a marginal expalnatory note by some medieval scribe. Now, the Catholic Church has adopted that last sentence.

........

However, the Catholic Church still uses trespasses instead of debts in the text of the prayer.

Just a couple of thoughts on Redlem's interesting piece above:

i.  You still get some RC's who don't feel too happy about all this "modernism". 

ii.  Talking about Pope Pius XII, his predecessor Pius X (who was Pope from 1903-14) was far more strict, as I discovered from an interesting radio programme recently about the history of liturgical music in the RC Church.  Pius X was one of the most conservative Popes ever.  He was canonised in 1954, the first Pope to be canonised for several centuries.  He was the Pope whose body, when exhumed 30 years later, was found to be in excellent condition, even though not embalmed.  In most matters he vigorously challenged any form of modernism.  Regarding church music during Pius X's Pontificate, if it wasn't Gregorian chant it was out.  All the former Palestrina, Mozart, Schubert, Bruckner etc went out of the window, like quickly and energetically.  These days, of course, almost anywhere you go it's all guitars and folk song rubbish in most church services, except for weddings and funerals. 

[bwv 1080]

However, the Catholic Church still uses trespasses instead of debts in the text of the prayer. This particularly appeals to American Catholics; Americans are probably second only to the Swiss in their reluctance to forgive debts. In the Fifties, we were taught to have a special place in our hearts for Finland, even though they are mostly Lutheran, because they were the only European country which had paid their WWI debts to the US in full. And besides, trespass is a broader word than debt. It covers more territory, and is probably more doctrinally correct. But Protestants adopted debt instead, mostly, I think, because it is more conducive to communal singing (or any kind of singing, for that matter) than trespasses. They sacrificed doctrinal rigor for aesthetics, and left the details to Sunday School classes.

.

The Anglican BCP (the first official liturgy in English) going back to 1662 uses the word "Trespasses"