The Second Viennese School (Schoenberg vs. Berg vs. Webern)

[Mirror Image]

Who do you prefer from The Second Viennese School?

[Mirror Image]

My vote goes to Berg. It will always be Berg when pitted against his teacher and fellow classmate.

[DavidW]

Schoenberg for me.

[Karl Henning]

Schoenberg for me.

+ 1

[Lethevich]

+2

[Mirror Image]

For Berg's Violin Concerto and Three Pieces for Orchestra alone, he wins over Schoenberg and Webern for me. My problem with Schoenberg stems from his music not being lyrical enough for me. Many of his 12-tone works just sound like one giant mess to me. He also didn't do well in opera or vocal works, which I'm not a big vocal fan but Berg's Der Wein, Altenberg-lieder, Wozzeck, and Seven Early Songs clearly show he had an affinity for the voice which Schoenberg and Webern did not. I didn't chose Webern because I think he's the weakest link here. His music is too cerebral and not emotional enough, which could be said of many of Schoenberg's works as well.

I guess I'm finding myself as each day progresses more of a fan of the Mahler --> Berg --> Shostakovich pathos. I really need to give Mahler a more fighting chance!

[madaboutmahler]

Extremely difficult for me to choose between Berg and Schoenberg... voted for Berg in the end. For pretty much the same reasons as John. Such haunting music!

[Karl Henning]

For Berg's Violin Concerto and Three Pieces for Orchestra alone, he wins over Schoenberg and Webern for me. My problem with Schoenberg stems from his music not being lyrical enough for me. Many of his 12-tone works just sound like one giant mess to me. He also didn't do well in opera or vocal works, which I'm not a big vocal fan but Berg's Der Wein, Altenberg-lieder, Wozzeck, and Seven Early Songs clearly show he had an affinity for the voice which Schoenberg and Webern did not. I didn't chose Webern because I think he's the weakest link here. His music is too cerebral and not emotional enough, which could be said of many of Schoenberg's works as well.

Well, I have no such problem with Schoenberg.  Many of even the 12-note works are sumptuously lyrical; nor do I find any of Schoenberg's music fitting the "one giant mess" description any more than certain works of Berg's.

I certainly like all three;  but where Schoenberg has a clearly greater claim on my listening time is in his range.  Berg and Webern have each carved a certain niche for themselves, and it's a great place to visit.  But Schoenberg's is a catalogue I could spend an entire week with, and not have it grow at all wearing.

"Too cerebral and not emoptional enough": could be slung at JS Bach, too, of course.  Personally, I just don't require all music to be "emotional";  and the idea of slinging cerebral as a dirty word at certain types of music just doesn't register with me.  The mature music of Mozart's is more cerebral than the music of his teen years; most of us consider that value added.

[DieNacht]

Currently, Arnold wins with a nose-tip ahead.

[Karl Henning]

Of course, Berg writes pretty good, for a noodle-head ; )

[springrite]

Berg for me. From Lulu and Wozzeck to the Chamber Concerto, Violin Concerto, to the songs and Lyric Suite, I can't get enough of Berg. While I like the other two as well (Webern more than Schoenberg), I would never say "I can't get enough" of those two. (Sometimes I may say "enough is enough"... Oh, I'd better hide...)

[Mirror Image]

Well, I have no such problem with Schoenberg.  Many of even the 12-note works are sumptuously lyrical; nor do I find any of Schoenberg's music fitting the "one giant mess" description any more than certain works of Berg's.

I certainly like all three;  but where Schoenberg has a clearly greater claim on my listening time is in his range.  Berg and Webern have each carved a certain niche for themselves, and it's a great place to visit.  But Schoenberg's is a catalogue I could spend an entire week with, and not have it grow at all wearing.

"Too cerebral and not emoptional enough": could be slung at JS Bach, too, of course.  Personally, I just don't require all music to be "emotional";  and the idea of slinging cerebral as a dirty word at certain types of music just doesn't register with me.  The mature music of Mozart's is more cerebral than the music of his teen years; most of us consider that value added.

I don't like music caught up in the mind, which a lot of Schoenberg seems to be to me. That's my criticism and I'm sticking to it. I think he was jealous of his student Berg, because Berg is the most successful of the three and it's certainly not hard to understand why. Berg wrote music from his heart and he wore it on his sleeve. I personally like this. Music has to have some kind of access point for me and much of Schoenberg does not, altough I'm still a sucker for his early, Romantic works and I even do admire some of the 12-tone works, but ultimately my decision came down to who moves me more and Berg easily won this contest. You listen to music in completely different way than I do, Karl and I respect that, but I would hope, in turn, you would respect the way I listen to music. I can surely see why you chose Schoenberg, you connect with his music more than Berg and Webern. You have talked about Schoenberg many times, so with this in mind, I made the assumption that he's one of your favorites and your choice comes as to no surprise to me in this poll.

[Mirror Image]

Of course, Berg writes pretty good, for a noodle-head ; )

  Zing!

[DavidW]

I think he was jealous of his student Berg, because Berg is the most successful of the three and it's certainly not hard to understand why.

Since he was one of the few composers of his time to be a household name, receive radio play and was welcomed to UCLA with open arms I don't believe your theory that he was jealous.

[TheGSMoeller]

Berg is the best of the three, there is no argument. I am right. This thread is over.


But my goodness...how wonderful are Schoenberg's Pierrot lunaire, and Chamber symphony no. 2...get back to me on this one. 

[Mirror Image]

Since he was one of the few composers of his time to be a household name, receive radio play and was welcomed to UCLA with open arms I don't believe your theory that he was jealous.

Schoenberg never had a successful opera. Berg's opera Wozzeck on the other hand was a huge success. This is what I'm more or less talking about. Well, look how much longer Schoenberg lived than Berg. Schoenberg fled Europe for the USA for obvious reasons, but I also think that Schoenberg was jealous that Berg was more successful in Europe in particular Austria than Schoenberg ever was.

[Lethevich]

I'm glad that this jealousy didn't prevent him from writing the better music

[Mirror Image]

I'm glad that this jealousy didn't prevent him from writing the better music

It's interesting that if you really think about it, all three composers still give many classical listeners a hard time even after everything that has happened prior to these composer's deaths.

[DavidW]

Schoenberg never had a successful opera. Berg's opera Wozzeck on the other hand was a huge success.

That's a fun theory but wrong.  Schoenberg strove to fit in with what was popular... which were symphonies and short orchestral works that were less challenging and more melodic.  Like the great Stravinsky or his tennis partner Gershwin.  He had found himself feeling like a footnote when he moved to California and strived to reinvent himself to become popular without losing his style.

But he was not a petty man, and I have not read of him begrudging Berg.  If this is just a flight of fancy, well let's move on.

[DavidW]

"Too cerebral and not emoptional enough": could be slung at JS Bach, too, of course.  Personally, I just don't require all music to be "emotional";  and the idea of slinging cerebral as a dirty word at certain types of music just doesn't register with me.  The mature music of Mozart's is more cerebral than the music of his teen years; most of us consider that value added.

"I owe very, very much to Mozart; and if one studies, for instance, the way in which I write for string quartet, then one cannot deny that I have learned this directly from Mozart. And I am proud of it!"

From Schoenberg himself.   It's good to find that composers are less narrow minded than some of their audience.