The Second Viennese School (Schoenberg vs. Berg vs. Webern)

[Mirror Image]

That's a fun theory but wrong.  Schoenberg strove to fit in with what was popular... which were symphonies and short orchestral works that were less challenging and more melodic.  Like the great Stravinsky or his tennis partner Gershwin.  He had found himself feeling like a footnote when he moved to California and strived to reinvent himself to become popular without losing his style.

But he was not a petty man, and I have not read of him begrudging Berg.  If this is just a flight of fancy, well let's move on.

This still doesn't change the fact that Schoenberg was jealous of Berg's fame in Europe. Something he never had.

[Karl Henning]

I don't like music caught up in the mind, which a lot of Schoenberg seems to be to me. That's my criticism and I'm sticking to it.

More correctly: that's your opinion, and why not stick to it?

There are plenty of people to whom it's not at all "music caught up in the mind" (whatever that is).

[Mirror Image]

More correctly: that's your opinion, and why not stick to it?

There are plenty of people to whom it's not at all "music caught up in the mind" (whatever that is).

None of this still doesn't the fact that I think Berg wrote the better music. Nice try though.

[Karl Henning]

This still doesn't change the fact that Schoenberg was jealous of Berg's fame in Europe. Something he never had.

Firstly, the fact is not quite how you persent it here.

Secondly, what does that have to do with the music?  Thank you for conceding the point, by abandoning this swampy "music caught up in the mind" balderdash, and going off into an irrelevant "jealousy" tangent : )

None of this still doesn't the fact that . . .

You're missing a verb. Nice try though ; )

[Mirror Image]

Out of curosity, who voted for Webern? James is that you...

[DavidW]

This still doesn't change the fact that Schoenberg was jealous of Berg's fame in Europe. Something he never had.

I concede that he envied his success with operas as you said.  I don't think that resentment carried through to a general, sustained feeling of jealousy.  That is what I got out of your post.

[Karl Henning]

I concede that he envied his success with operas as you said.  I don't think that resentment carried through to a general, sustained feeling of jealousy.  That is what I got out of your post.

I should think that to at least as great a degree, he was pleased on Berg's behalf.

[Mirror Image]

I concede that he envied his success with operas as you said.  I don't think that resentment carried through to a general, sustained feeling of jealousy.  That is what I got out of your post.

Well perhaps resentment is the better word. Karl, asked me what does this have to do with the music? It had plenty to do with the music, it meant that Berg's music was more popular in Europe than Schoenberg's own. More people liked it in other words.

By the way, Karl, I'm still waiting on that ballet...

[DavidW]

I should think that to at least as great a degree, he was pleased on Berg's behalf.

Yes and since Berg envied the more private compositions of Schoenberg it was more mutual admiration.

[Mirror Image]

I should think that to at least as great a degree, he was pleased on Berg's behalf.

You would think wrongly then. While on the surface he may have been congradulatory, deep down he thought he deserved the success more than Berg.

[DavidW]

deep down he thought he deserved the success more than Berg.

Speculative your honor.  What are you a time traveling telepath?  How can you claim to know his thoughts better than Schoenberg himself!?

[Karl Henning]

The historical facts themselves are so interesting; what do you want to overlay them with encrusted, tendentious opinion for?

[Mirror Image]

The historical facts themselves are so interesting; what do you want to overlay them with encrusted, tendentious opinion for?

Yes, yes, Karl. The facts are interesting, but this is a whole lot more fun. By the way, how's that ballet coming?

[Karl Henning]

What do you do for fun when you aren't changing the subject? ; )

Recommended reading, John:

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[mszczuj]

Voted for Webern.

I haven't listened to any of them for years so I'm not sure if it is a good choice. But one of my listening of Piano Variations was so peculiar experience that it prevailed.

[Lisztianwagner]

Extremely difficult for me to choose between Berg and Schoenberg... voted for Berg in the end. For pretty much the same reasons as John. Such haunting music!

Hmm, choosing between Berg and Schönberg is quite hard for me too...
I agree Berg's music is certainly beautiful and powerfully emotional, in particular his Violin Concerto, Lyrische Suite and Three Pieces for Orchestra; but I think I'll end up voting for Schönberg.

[Mirror Image]

Hmm, choosing between Berg and Schönberg is quite hard for me too...
I agree Berg's music is certainly beautiful and powerfully emotional, in particular his Violin Concerto, Lyrische Suite and Three Pieces for Orchestra; but I think I'll end voting for Schönberg.

You didn't choose Webern? I'm surprised.

[Lisztianwagner]

You didn't choose Webern? I'm surprised.

I prefer Berg and Schönberg so far.

[Sergeant Rock]

As much as I love Berg's Violin Concerto, Schoenberg gets my vote, with Webern coming in second.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

I prefer Berg and Schönberg so far.

I was making a little joke of course. Webern's music does little for me.