POLL Brahms or Wagner?

[Ten thumbs]

Wagner and Liszt were certainly important innovators in chromatic harmony, but there is a great deal more to modernism than pitch syntax. Both Schoenberg and Webern acknowledged  Brahms as an important influence, the former in his essay, "Brahms the Progressive," and the latter in his lectures published posthumously as The Path to New Music.

and I don't see why Marvin is so excited about such harmony. Why, even Fanny Hensel used chromatic harmony and dissonance extensively, and in her own words, she was not a part of 'Young Germany'. Such things were widespread in that era and would inevitably have led to atonality, maybe even sooner. Who knows?

[Ten thumbs]

 
   .......had it not been for Wagner there would be no Mahler, no Bruckner, no Debussy, no Schoenberg,
 

I wonder if anyone ever told their fathers.   

[marvinbrown]

and I don't see why Marvin is so excited about such harmony. Why, even Fanny Hensel used chromatic harmony and dissonance extensively, and in her own words, she was not a part of 'Young Germany'. Such things were widespread in that era and would inevitably have led to atonality, maybe even sooner. Who knows?

   Some could have experimented with atonality, but none could pull it off the way Wagner did.  Let's face it, Tristan und Isolde is mind-blowing!

marvin

 

[North Star]

   Some could have experimented with atonality, but none could pull it off the way Wagner did.  Let's face it, Tristan und Isolde is mind-blowing!

marvin

Yes, especially the chord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtJgY-qHZY

[eyeresist]

The bottom line is this, atonality (that break from romanticism and into modernism) in music was ushered in by the Liszt/Wagner camp and not by Brahms/Schubert/Mendelssohn camp. 

But it is not as though common practice tonality was swept away by the modern revolution. In the end, atonal methods became part of the toolkit which still rests on the old ways. And people still write symphonies (despite modernists saying the form was obsolete), and anyone writing a symphony must acknowledge Brahms.

[marvinbrown]

Yes, especially the chord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtJgY-qHZY

But it is not as though common practice tonality was swept away by the modern revolution. In the end, atonal methods became part of the toolkit which still rests on the old ways. And people still write symphonies (despite modernists saying the form was obsolete), and anyone writing a symphony must acknowledge Brahms.

   "It is often remarked that there is a strong resemblance between the main theme of the finale of Brahms' First Symphony and the main theme of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Also, Brahms uses the rhythm of the "fate" motto from the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. This rather annoyed Brahms; he felt that this amounted to accusations of plagiarism," (wikipedia)............ 

  This will be my last rebuttal on this thread......... 

[Karl Henning]

   Some could have experimented with atonality, but none could pull it off the way Wagner did.

Point of information: Nothing that Wagner wrote is atonal.

Your adulation for his music comes across loud and clear, Marvin, but let's not attribute things to to the composer that he never done.

He didn't design the Space Shuttle, either ...

[Lisztianwagner]

Point of information: Nothing that Wagner wrote is atonal.

I think it's not completely right: in Tristan und Isolde, the chromatism is taken to extremes so much that it leaves the tonal structure.

[Luke]

I think it's not completely right: in Tristan und Isolde, the chromatism is taken to extremes so much that it leaves the tonal structure.

No, it really doesn't. It does fascinating, adventurous things near the borders of where tonality goes, but it doesn't cross them.

[starrynight]

Does anyone else not care whether music is considered tonal or not tonal as long as it is good?  The technical change in the way people define the music isn't that important to me.  Tonality has never completely gone away anyway.  And even though Wagner said the symphony was dead it arguably had a more full life in the last century than opera did.

[Luke]

No, personally I certainly don't care. Though I also think the issues are way more complex and interesting than they've been presented here. But it's still worth getting the facts right, isn't it?

[Marc]

   "It is often remarked that there is a strong resemblance between the main theme of the finale of Brahms' First Symphony and the main theme of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Also, Brahms uses the rhythm of the "fate" motto from the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. This rather annoyed Brahms; he felt that this amounted to accusations of plagiarism," (wikipedia)............ 

  This will be my last rebuttal on this thread.........

I respect that choice.

I'm just curious, though.
Was Wagner never annoyed?

Did no one ever tell him about pre-runners of the famous chord?
Or did he (somewhere inside) admit or acknowledge such things himself?

Mmm .... who knows ....

Are Cosima's diary notes on August 29th of 1878 a.o. referring to this chord when she wrote that Wagner told her that he had vieles gestohlen (stolen a lot)?

Did he steal a lot from Cosima's father?

Did Wagner know Liszt's epic song Ich möchte hingeh'n (1845)?

Did he know the first movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata in E-flat, op. 31 no. 3?
Did he know Chopin's Mazurka in F-minor, op. 68 no. 4, published in 1855?

I'll leave it with that.
Let's be fair: these three blokes aren't included in this poll.

I voted for Brahms, btw.
I like his music better and, unlike Wagner, Brahms was more interested in various genres and in music for music's sake.

[Ten thumbs]

Yes, especially the chord:

As Marc as instigated a hunt for the chord, I thought it amusing to do so. I must I didn't expect to find it in Hensel who was more at home with the German sixth, as in my favourite chord: G2#G3#C4#E4A4F5x from Das Jahr: March (I call this the crucifixion chord). The chord could however derive from a diminished seventh over a pedal (here C#), as for instance C3#D3#F3#A3B3#trill if one took away the trill (from Capriccio).
Anyway, here it is from Op8.3, the lied headed Lenau: two very prominent instances
bar 32: B1bb, B2bb, E4b, G4b, D5b
bar 36: G1, G2, B3b, D4b, F4, F6
The last being the climactic chord of the whole piece. Perhaps it ought to be known as the Lenau chord!

[Marc]

As Marc as instigated a hunt for the chord, I thought it amusing to do so. I must I didn't expect to find it in Hensel who was more at home with the German sixth, as in my favourite chord: G2#G3#C4#E4A4F5x from Das Jahr: March (I call this the crucifixion chord). The chord could however derive from a diminished seventh over a pedal (here C#), as for instance C3#D3#F3#A3B3#trill if one took away the trill (from Capriccio).
Anyway, here it is from Op8.3, the lied headed Lenau: two very prominent instances
bar 32: B1bb, B2bb, E4b, G4b, D5b
bar 36: G1, G2, B3b, D4b, F4, F6
The last being the climactic chord of the whole piece. Perhaps it ought to be known as the Lenau chord!

This Lied ohne Worte was apparently inspired by a poem of Nikolaus Lenau (1802-1850).

And yes, Hensel (and also Louis Spohr!) has been mentioned more than once in the search for 'the roots of the (in)famous Tristan chord'.
I just chose to pick three more famous composers during Wagner's lifetime.

I mean, if Wagner had known medieval music (De Machaut etc.) then he might have realized that his discovery wasn't all that revolutionary at all.

But he's not to blame for not knowing that, because his turntable and cd-player were broken, and the flames rose to his german nose and his walkman started to melt.

[Elgarian]

He didn't design the Space Shuttle, either ...

What?!

Right, that does it. I've cancelled my subscription to 'Weird Facts Weekly'.

[eyeresist]

But he's not to blame for not knowing that, because his turntable and cd-player were broken, and the flames rose to his german nose and his walkman started to melt.

THAT's an opera he should have written.


i.e. Joan of Arc

[Marc]

THAT's an opera he should have written.


i.e. Joan of Arc

Yep.
I'm convinced it would have been a genuine Gesamtkunstwerk.

[North Star]

This Lied ohne Worte was apparently inspired by a poem of Nikolaus Lenau (1802-1850).

And yes, Hensel (and also Louis Spohr!) has been mentioned more than once in the search for 'the roots of the (in)famous Tristan chord'.
I just chose to pick three more famous composers during Wagner's lifetime.

I mean, if Wagner had known medieval music (De Machaut etc.) then he might have realized that his discovery wasn't all that revolutionary at all.

But he's not to blame for not knowing that, because his turntable and cd-player were broken, and the flames rose to his german nose and his walkman started to melt.

But did Wagner himself think of the chord as revolutionary?

[Marc]

But did Wagner himself think of the chord as revolutionary?

I think he at least did think it was very important, though of course one has to be cautious with Internet sources.
Problem is, my source is a Dutch site about Franz Liszt:

http://pianolessen.eu/franz-liszt/

I will try to translate the passage to which I refer:

Both Liszt and Wagner wrote works in which the tonal modus was very difficult to find. In this regard, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde can be considered as a hightlight and this composition, alongside other opera's of Wagner, had great influence on the musical and cultural world in the 2nd half of the 19th century, up to the 'early modernists' such as Richard Strauss and Gustav Mahler, and eventually Schoenberg.

The great interest and admiration for Wagner's compositions were quite legitimate, even though many admirers were sometimes too fanatical and hysterical in their admiration. And mainly because of that Liszt's music became underexposed.

The famous Tristan chord had, with a small difference, already been heard in a rather unknown song by Liszt Ich möchte hingeh'n. Every time Wagner was reminded of this by his environment, he burst into a rage and exclaimed that only he himself had invented this chord, around which the opera "Tristan und Isolde" is built.
The more modest Liszt has never mixed in this discussion. In his friendship with Wagner, Liszt was, as in any other contact, a giver, as Wagner was in all a taker, whether friendships, love affairs or the potential to raise money was concerned.

Mind you: I'm not anti-Wagner. I had a free day today, and this morning I listened to the first act of Tannhauser and even enjoyed it. (Although I didn't feel the need to continue with act 2.  )

But the poll was asking: Brahms or Wagner? I prefer Brahms and love his music a lot, although, to be honest, I'm not really a sucker for 19th century music.

Wagner is one of those composer whith whom I never really felt the 'click'. I'm not denying his importance, but I sometimes feel it's overdone. And in this thread there was a tendency growing like how on earth could one say that Brahms is a better composer than Wagner?. Followed by some almost Messiah-like outbursts in favour of the Bayreuth Meister. I like enthousiasm about a composer, but, in my case , one has to be very very careful to downplay the qualities of Brahms.

But I can also be the devil's advocate: my fave composer - by far - is Bach, but if some other fan calls the man directly sent from heaven or even almost equal to God (which happens sometimes) and downplays other great (baroque) composers, then I will protest.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

  I feel the same way. I love Brahms' chamber music (one of the great hidden secrets of classical music!)  but Wagner  0:) is my main man!

  You know I think that I am one of the very few people on the GMG forums who actually prefers Wagner to......YIKES!.....BEETHOVEN (my 2nd favorite composer)!


  marvin

I know that this is old quote but I have to say that this post completely echoes my feelings. I too prefer Wagner over Beethoven, have Beethoven as 2nd favorite composer and I adore Brahms's chamber music.

Now, in case it's not clear from my nickname: the answer is Wagner (as much as I love Brahms).