Karajan vs Bernstein - Poll

[Mirror Image]

Hope you will change idea after listening to Wagner's Ring Cycle

Well opera is one medium Bernstein didn't really have much involvement in, but the broad range of composers that Bernstein performed, and very well I might add , puts him many notches above Karajan IMHO.

[starrynight]

   Karajan, he is more consistent and have the wide-range repertoire than Bernstein. In opera and choral music, Karajan easily surpasses Bernstein, except West Side Story .
    In ochestral work, Karajan is better in Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Mendelssohn, Debussy, Ravel, Vienna 2nd and  Johann Strauss.  Bernstein is better in Mahler, Berlioz, Haydn,Stravinsky, Nielsen. Both excel in Sibelius, Schumann,Schubert, Shostakovich.

I thought Karajan would be in a clearer lead, but I suppose his reputation took more of a downward curve in recent years.  There was bound to be a backlash I suppose after his big reputation earlier.  And then there was publicity over his political leanings, and Bernstein may well have been promoted well in America as a great conductor.  Not saying Bernstein is bad, but Karajan as you say did so much.  Maybe some felt he did too much being probably the most recorded conductor ever,  but that shouldn't camouflage the many good things he did through most, if not all, of his life.

[trung224]

I thought Karajan would be in a clearer lead, but I suppose his reputation took more of a downward curve in recent years.  There was bound to be a backlash I suppose after his big reputation earlier.  And then there was publicity over his political leanings, and Bernstein may well have been promoted well in America as a great conductor.  Not saying Bernstein is bad, but Karajan as you say did so much.  Maybe some felt he did too much being probably the most recorded conductor ever,  but that shouldn't camouflage the many good things he did through most, if not all, of his life.

   Indeed, no one can do everything right. I'd say Karajan is better in Beethoven or Brahms than Bernstein do not mean Karajan is the best conductor in certain area. F.ex, I like Brahms from Furtwangler, Klemperer, Giulini, Bruno Walter, Jochum, and sometimes late Celibidache over Karajan day-and-night, though Karajan 's Brahms 2 1964 is the best Brahms 2 I've heard. And in Beethoven, Furtwangler IMO is the God.
   And as I know, most of superstar conductor suffer from the reduction of reputation after they died. In the 1950s-1960s, in US, Toscanini, and Reiner (in Chicago) are God, but now the younger listeners, like me, have no interest to discover their art. This phenomenon is very simple and good for music. Toscanini, Furtwangler, Klemperer, Karajan, Bernstein is the past. Now we have Abbado, Chailly, Thielemann, Boulez ..., who produce more new and interesting music, such as  Mahler 2,3,6,7,9 from Abbado with BPO superseded Bernstein's recording. Thielemann's Bruckner 5, Boulez's Bruckner 8, Chailly's Beethoven cycle put new and intereting idea to the old pieces. But Karajan can live with Beethoven, Bruckner cycle, Bruckner 4,7 (EMI), Bruckner 7,8 (Vienna), Richard Strauss's Tone Poems, Sibelius 4,5,6, Mahler 5,6,9, Brahms 2 1963, Shostakovich 10, Prokofiev 5, Honegger 2,3, Debussy' La Mer, Schumann 3, and indeed Wagner, Puccini, Verdi.

[starrynight]

Furtwangler's reputation kind of lives on though I think.  Not many brought that kind of intensity to music.  Mengelberg maybe sometimes, but Furtwangler seemed to have a stronger recorded legacy.

[val]

In general, I would prefer Karajan. But we cannot forget some extraordinary recordings of Bernstein (Haydn's Symphonies 82 to 87), Sibelius (First, 3rd and 7th Symphonies), Mahler (Symphonies 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9, this one with the Berlin Philharmonic) and of course some American music, Ives and Gershwin in special.

[starrynight]

Karajan is quite famous in Sibelius, particularly for 6, 5 and 4.

[mc ukrneal]

Why not merge  the polls? We could have Bernstein's Mahler vs Karajan's Bruckner!

[Lisztianwagner]

Why not merge  the polls? We could have Bernstein's Mahler vs Karajan's Bruckner!

That's not a bad idea!
Hmm, it would be really hard to choose for me.....

[Wendell_E]

If only one of them had actually conducted with a banana....

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Lenny all the way.

[starrynight]

Lenny all the way.

Herbie leads.

[mahler10th]

Karajan for his support and advocacy of new technologies to hear and interact with music.  And also because he tapped into the common ear with his interpretations, bringning Classical Music to a much wider audience.  And he got the tempo of Beets 5th spot on in a 1968 broadcast.  Also he was a great supporter of emerging talents, a crusader for rally cars, and a spiffing good conductor to boot.  Although, if it came to which of these conductors was more accessible and generous of his musical knowledge, it would be Bernstein period.

[Mirror Image]

Karajan is quite famous in Sibelius, particularly for 6, 5 and 4.

I think he blew #4-7 out of the park. I like HvK's Sibelius more than Bernstein's, but I never understood why he didn't perform #1-3? When it comes to Mahler, there's not contest, Lenny wins. When it comes to edgy music (Bartok, Stravinsky, Shostakovich) Lenny killed HvK. But while I love Lenny's emotional drive, I think HvK's shape of the musical phrase was much more distinguished, which is why HvK excelled in Mendelssohn, Bruckner, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Debussy, Ravel, Grieg, and even the Second Viennese School, which Lenny stayed away from. But, again, it comes down to who moves you and makes the music connect with you and Bernstein just does it for me.

[starrynight]

Maybe it depends what kind of music you prefer too then, I probably like the more shaped crafted music than the more fiery expressionist.  Most music probably falls into that first category though.

[eyeresist]

I like HvK's Sibelius more than Bernstein's, but I never understood why he didn't perform #1-3?

Karajan did record 1 and 2 (this twice) for EMI. His digital 1 is awesome - the phrase "velvet steamroller" comes to mind.

P.S. Do you not rate K in Shostakovich 10?

[starrynight]

I've always liked Karajan's Nielsen 4 too

[Mirror Image]

Karajan did record 1 and 2 (this twice) for EMI. His digital 1 is awesome - the phrase "velvet steamroller" comes to mind.

P.S. Do you not rate K in Shostakovich 10?

Ah, I tend forget about Karajan's EMI recordings, which have never impressed that much. I do like his Shostakovich 10th but I've heard so many performances of the 10th that I just enjoy more. Rattle/CBSO being one of them.

[eyeresist]

Ah, I tend forget about Karajan's EMI recordings, which have never impressed that much.

I imagine you would prefer DG's relative clarity and transparency to 70s EMI's rich heaviosity. For the Romantics, I prefer K's EMI recordings - although they pretty much ruined his Schubert IMHO.

[DavidW]

P.S. Do you not rate K in Shostakovich 10?

His finest achievement imo.

[Mirror Image]

His finest achievement imo.

Your avatar looks familiar. Is this David Cronenberg approved?