Recordings That You Are Considering

[Scarpia]

Wait, now Amazon has lowered the price to $65.-, which means that the Bartók Quartet, the tremendously awesome Prazak Quartet (SACD!), the Orford Quartet, and the Beethoven Quartet all slip in line before it. Well, maybe it is a bargain, after all. :-)

I'm astonished that someone things people will pay $100 for a Bartok Quartet cycle in the current retail climate.   Not that it isn't "worth it" but there are so many alternatives at a lower price point.  I'd really have to want it really bad to pay that (and I can't imagine there are so many who do).

[Bulldog]

That review is part of an interview, a so called feature-review. Without going into greater detail: NEVER trust those (blindly).

I can't recall any feature-review where the review was negative.  At the very least, it seems to me that the reviewer tries like hell to be as positive as possible.

[SonicMan46]

Dave, if I may put in a good word for the Endellion set - it contains everything Beethoven ever wrote for string quartet, from the original version of Op 18 No 1 to the fugue he jotted down as a souvenir for a visitor in the late 1820s. Unfortunately the Endellion are my introduction to Beethoven's quartets, so I've never heard any other versions and can't do any comparing, but they sure do sound good so far. 

Hi Brian - my first 'complete' Beethoven collection of the SQs was made up of multiple groups (can't even recall them all); then I bought the Takács Quartet recordings from the BMG club at 'rock bottom' prices as I recall - and later added the Quatuor Mosaiques in the Op. 18 works - have been w/ those for a while until I read the reviews on the Alexander SQ, including the MusicWeb one listed by David - 

Last night I placed an order w/ one of the Amazon Markeplace retailers who was offering the 9-CD package for $56 (plus the usual $3 S/H) - seemed like a great price to me; now whether Jerry Dubins was 'brown-nosing' in his comments, those by Cookson were convincing to me - but can only wait to give the set a listen on arrival - Dave

[kishnevi]

Well, if the stable mate liketh, then I should hear it, too. Let's see if they'll send a copy over. Though I can't agree with his conclusion that "$71.99 by Amazon for nine discs" is a bargain. Well, in a way I agree: it's a very good price in absolute terms. And nothing is too expensive when the quality is accordingly.

But of available complete sets, that makes it the second third {somewhere in the top 6} most expensive on Amazon, after the Gewandhaus String Quartet set. (Which I should finally get around to listening. Argh...) And the stupendous Végh Quartet is available for just a smidgen more.

Wait, now Amazon has lowered the price to $65.-, which means that the Bartók Quartet, the tremendously awesome Prazak Quartet (SACD!), the Orford Quartet, and the Beethoven Quartet all slip in line before it. Well, maybe it is a bargain, after all. :-)

Just for comparison:  DG's 22 CD box of Gardiner's Bach Choral Works was listed by Amazon when I checked earlier this evening for $71.99,  and is available in brick and mortar Borders stores for either $63.99 or $65.99--don't quite remember which at the moment.  And can be downloaded from DG's Web Shop (as MP3s) for $44.99.

Granted the difference between brand new performances being issued for the first time by a smaller label and an assemblage of re-issues some of whom date back almost twenty years by a megacorp--but that works out to almost 2 1/2 CDs of Bach to one of Beethoven.

Borders.com lists the Arte Nova box of the earlier Alexander cycle for $39.99. Amazon lists it as unavailable, with no price.

[Scarpia]

Just for comparison:  DG's 22 CD box of Gardiner's Bach Choral Works was listed by Amazon when I checked earlier this evening for $71.99,  and is available in brick and mortar Borders stores for either $63.99 or $65.99--don't quite remember which at the moment.  And can be downloaded from DG's Web Shop (as MP3s) for $44.99.

Granted the difference between brand new performances being issued for the first time by a smaller label and an assemblage of re-issues some of whom date back almost twenty years by a megacorp--but that works out to almost 2 1/2 CDs of Bach to one of Beethoven.

Borders.com lists the Arte Nova box of the earlier Alexander cycle for $39.99. Amazon lists it as unavailable, with no price.

Really, if you don't understand why brand new recordings in premium packaging merits a higher price than 20 year old recordings, reissued for the umpteenth time in bare bones packaging, largely from a dead cycle that was canceled because of poor sales, then I don't know how it can be explained to you. 

[jlaurson]

Really, if you don't understand why brand new recordings in premium packaging merits a higher price than 20 year old recordings, reissued for the umpteenth time in bare bones packaging, largely from a dead cycle that was canceled because of poor sales, then I don't know how it can be explained to you.

[snicker snicker] 0:)

[DavidW]

Just for comparison:  DG's 22 CD box of Gardiner's Bach Choral Works was listed by Amazon when I checked earlier this evening for $71.99,  and is available in brick and mortar Borders stores for either $63.99 or $65.99--don't quite remember which at the moment.  And can be downloaded from DG's Web Shop (as MP3s) for $44.99.

Could you show me the link, because I don't think you have it right.  His box set is 9 cds, and all of those cantata recordings were done on a different label, why would they end up in a big bargain set by dg?

[jlaurson]

Could you show me the link, because I don't think you have it right.  His box set is 9 cds, and all of those cantata recordings were done on a different label, why would they end up in a big bargain set by dg?

Gardiner started the cantatas (Pilgrimage and NON-pilgrimage) on Archiv, before they pulled the plug. Hence the 22 discs. Amazon it at this link.

[DavidW]

Gardiner started the cantatas (Pilgrimage and NON-pilgrimage) on Archiv, before they pulled the plug. Hence the 22 discs. Amazon it at this link.

I sometimes forget about all of those mergers.  My impressions of his early recordings was that Gardiner had poor articulation and too fast tempos that it made Bach sound superficial.  I've heard that his later recordings are better, but I haven't actually tried any.  If they really are better, it might be worth the price.

Nah screw it, I'll just go with Kuijken.   But thanks for the link.

[jlaurson]

Nah screw it, I'll just go with Kuijken.   But thanks for the link.

Kuijken is my man, too.

Sigiswald Kuijken and Bach Cantatas
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=603

[kishnevi]

Really, if you don't understand why brand new recordings in premium packaging merits a higher price than 20 year old recordings, reissued for the umpteenth time in bare bones packaging, largely from a dead cycle that was canceled because of poor sales, then I don't know how it can be explained to you.

Tranquillo!

I certainly understand the differences--I mentioned them in my comment.   Obviously someone has to pay the recording engineers, etc.--not to mention the musicians. 
But that's a steep price differential; the packaging had better be very premium.  Harmonia Mundi is relatively steep, but they do usually have, if not premium packaging, at least upgraded packaging;  Staier's Goldbergs is the third recording I've purchased from them lately which has a short DVD thrown in.
And why would the average listener want to pay such a high price, without word of mouth that comes from fora like this one? Beethoven SQs are not exactly sparse on the ground;  even if you ignore all the reissues such as Quartetto Italiano, Alban Berg Quartett, etc. , there are at least two ongoing cycles from major labels I know of--Tokyo SQ on HM, and Artemis on Virgin, the latter of which at least is going to receive a major marketing push when the complete cycle becomes available next year.    Not to mention their own previous cycle, which is available as a relatively cheap reissue for close to half the price.

EDIT: But apparently a bargain compared to the Gewandhaus set Jens posted to the listening thread--although from the tenor of the customer comment, it seems Gewandhaus made heavy use of premium packaging.   [Side question to Jens: is the Gewandhaus set a compilation of recordings made at different times over the years, or a true cycle recorded in proximity by the same basic roster of quartet members?]

[james66]

Jean-claude pennetier's recording of Schubert's final sonata and impromptus on Lyrinx. Has anyone listened to it? There are virtually no reviews on this recording. I enjoyed his Jadin sonatas very much, so could take the plunge and buy.

[Scarpia]

Tranquillo!

I certainly understand the differences--I mentioned them in my comment.   Obviously someone has to pay the recording engineers, etc.--not to mention the musicians. 
But that's a steep price differential; the packaging had better be very premium.  Harmonia Mundi is relatively steep, but they do usually have, if not premium packaging, at least upgraded packaging;  Staier's Goldbergs is the third recording I've purchased from them lately which has a short DVD thrown in.
And why would the average listener want to pay such a high price, without word of mouth that comes from fora like this one? Beethoven SQs are not exactly sparse on the ground;  even if you ignore all the reissues such as Quartetto Italiano, Alban Berg Quartett, etc. , there are at least two ongoing cycles from major labels I know of--Tokyo SQ on HM, and Artemis on Virgin, the latter of which at least is going to receive a major marketing push when the complete cycle becomes available next year.    Not to mention their own previous cycle, which is available as a relatively cheap reissue for close to half the price.

EDIT: But apparently a bargain compared to the Gewandhaus set Jens posted to the listening thread--although from the tenor of the customer comment, it seems Gewandhaus made heavy use of premium packaging.   [Side question to Jens: is the Gewandhaus set a compilation of recordings made at different times over the years, or a true cycle recorded in proximity by the same basic roster of quartet members?]

Huh?   What are you trying to say?  I have no clue.

[Sergeant Rock]

[Side question to Jens: is the Gewandhaus set a compilation of recordings made at different times over the years, or a true cycle recorded in proximity by the same basic roster of quartet members?]

I'm not Jens but I own the set also. The recordings were made over several years (1996-2003). The members remained the same: Frank-Michael Erben, Conrad Suske, Volker Metz, Jürnjakob Timm. There is a bonus disc with excerpts from recordings made by former members of the quartet.

Sarge

[jlaurson]

I'm not Jens but I own the set also. The recordings were made over several years (1996-2003). The members remained the same: Frank-Michael Erben, Conrad Suske, Volker Metz, Jürnjakob Timm. There is a bonus disc with excerpts from recordings made by former members of the quartet.

Sarge

What he said. I'm not sure if I like their Ueber-premium packaging, though... it doesn't fit into a CD shelf. If they had done something similar, but not twice as tall as regular CD packaging, it'd find it awesome (incl. the large book on the 200 year [sic] history of the quartet). That said, I've found opp.59/3, 127, 131, 130, and 133 very impressive. Now I'm on the last disc of the main quartets.

Then comes op.14/1, which I wrote about a while ago: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-21.html

[kishnevi]

Huh?   What are you trying to say?  I have no clue.

Okay, my NT-interface software has been glitchy all week long.  Let me try again.
1) Your point about the obvious differences between the ASQ set and the Gardiner set is perfectly true, and there are labels which have prices that are relatively higher--but they usually include premium packaging of one kind or another. 
2) But even taking those differences into account, the price differential seems to be fairly steep, and I'm wondering what would make it worthwhile to pay the difference.  There doesn't seem to be anything very premium about the packaging, for example.
3) To add even more pungency to (2), the music on these recordings is well represented on the market, both in terms of relatively recent or ongoing cycles being recorded now, and in terms of re-issues.  Even the ASQ itself has a previous cycle available as a cheap reissue on Arte Nova.   The prospective buyer has plenty of choices available, much of it from well known artists like the Takacs,  Alban Berg, Quartetto Italiano, etc..  Suppose he came across the new ASQ cycle without any previous knowledge from places like this, or Ionarts.   In light of the price, what would tempt him to buy the ASQ set?

[kishnevi]

What he said. I'm not sure if I like their Ueber-premium packaging, though... it doesn't fit into a CD shelf. If they had done something similar, but not twice as tall as regular CD packaging, it'd find it awesome (incl. the large book on the 200 year [sic] history of the quartet). That said, I've found opp.59/3, 127, 131, 130, and 133 very impressive. Now I'm on the last disc of the main quartets.

Then comes op.14/1, which I wrote about a while ago: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-21.html

Thanks to you and Sarge.
The Amazon descriptions suggested the whole thing was a compilation from different periods of the GQ's recording career, not just the bonus CD.

[Scarpia]

Okay, my NT-interface software has been glitchy all week long.  Let me try again.
1) Your point about the obvious differences between the ASQ set and the Gardiner set is perfectly true, and there are labels which have prices that are relatively higher--but they usually include premium packaging of one kind or another. 
2) But even taking those differences into account, the price differential seems to be fairly steep, and I'm wondering what would make it worthwhile to pay the difference.  There doesn't seem to be anything very premium about the packaging, for example.
3) To add even more pungency to (2), the music on these recordings is well represented on the market, both in terms of relatively recent or ongoing cycles being recorded now, and in terms of re-issues.  Even the ASQ itself has a previous cycle available as a cheap reissue on Arte Nova.   The prospective buyer has plenty of choices available, much of it from well known artists like the Takacs,  Alban Berg, Quartetto Italiano, etc..  Suppose he came across the new ASQ cycle without any previous knowledge from places like this, or Ionarts.   In light of the price, what would tempt him to buy the ASQ set?

When I first put the set in my shopping cart it was $56 for 9 discs (it has since gone up a bit).   That is six dollars per disc, which passes for "budget."    That is much cheaper than the vast majority of new recordings released by any label.   It is cheaper than the 40 year old Italiano recordings, and roughly the same as the 50 year old Amadeus recordings.   Should I be surprised that it is not quite as cheap, per disc, as the cheapest set that can be found anywhere on Amazon, the super-budget re-release of the remnants of a failed, 20 year old recording project?   The comparison you are drawing makes no sense.   I refuse to buy that shirt, because it costs more than those socks?

That said, I'm considering getting the set because of the praise it has earned in some quarters, and because the excepts sound good.  My main reservation is whether I'll ever find time to listen to it.

[Bulldog]

Okay, my NT-interface software has been glitchy all week long.  Let me try again.
1) Your point about the obvious differences between the ASQ set and the Gardiner set is perfectly true, and there are labels which have prices that are relatively higher--but they usually include premium packaging of one kind or another. 
2) But even taking those differences into account, the price differential seems to be fairly steep, and I'm wondering what would make it worthwhile to pay the difference.  There doesn't seem to be anything very premium about the packaging, for example.
3) To add even more pungency to (2), the music on these recordings is well represented on the market, both in terms of relatively recent or ongoing cycles being recorded now, and in terms of re-issues.  Even the ASQ itself has a previous cycle available as a cheap reissue on Arte Nova.   The prospective buyer has plenty of choices available, much of it from well known artists like the Takacs,  Alban Berg, Quartetto Italiano, etc..  Suppose he came across the new ASQ cycle without any previous knowledge from places like this, or Ionarts.   In light of the price, what would tempt him to buy the ASQ set?

Two comments:

1.  Kishnevi appears to have a little obsession about premium packaging; no idea why, but speaking for myself, I don't give a damn about packaging.

2.  Kishnevi also seems not able to get beyond his own particular notions of "worth".  He talks about how new recordings often cost much more than older recordings and reissues, and that this makes no sense.

However, it makes perfect sense.  First, a company wants to charge more than the cost of the product; that's how profit is made.  Of course, this brings up the issue of why consumers would pay much more for a new product than an older product - because it is NEW.  If this doesn't ring a bell in Kishnevi's head, nothing will help.

[DavidW]

Kisnhevi-- simple answer to your question, go to youtube there are a couple of full movements you can find for ASQ (newer).  Do you like it?  Is what you like about it not found in what you already own?  If yes, then buy it, if no then pass.  If yes but only if it's cheaper, then wait it for it to drop in price.  See pretty simple.

I usually pay about $10-15/cd and consider that normal, so I have trouble seeing why you think that set is unreasonably expensive?   Must everything be super bargain $2/cd?  Are we buying music here or stockpiling for the apocalypse?