Recordings That You Are Considering

[Renfield]

This is where Abbado's and Boulez' readings stand out so much. The attention to fine detail and lyrical context in these recordings is just mindblowing, there is really no phrase or detail which isn't given proper attention, and it all still doesn't fall apart into myriads of small unconnected details but it all "fits" together perfectly. That also has a lot to do with the orchestra, too, the WP just simply "own" this piece which relies so extremely on the expressive values of instrumental color, and they come closest to the colors Mahler knew, especially the horns which are so prominent here and they play exactly the same kind of horn Mahler. Plus the naturally elegant and eloquent phrasing of the orchestra just totally fits the music, especially the lyrical elements in it. Both conductors make optimal use of that potential.

Very interesting. I had similar thoughts about the VPO yesterday, when I was thinking about the best recordings of the Mahler 3rd I have. There does seem to be something of a Mahlerian élan to that orchestra, as you implied; and even with my relatively small experience in the various orchestral "sounds" (e.g. the "VPO sound", the "RCO sound", etc.), the one thing that has always stayed with me after hearing the VPO play is the way they seem to "infuse" the notes with something of a life of their own...

And semi-romantic metaphors aside, there do seem to be certain conductors more capable than others of "unlocking' the "VPO sound", all in all leading to excellent results in this symphony. As you said, they "own" the piece: all they need is someone who they trust to lead them through it.

As far as your observations on the Chailly recording go, I will definitely keep them in mind. In the way of "primeval" Mahler 3rds, it could be interesting... Something like Valery Gergiev's "Rite of Spring" with the Kirov, maybe?

Chailly himself has yet to make an impression on me, though. The best examples of his conducting I have encountered so far are orchestral accompaniments to concerti, with the Gewandhausorchester: and good as he is in those, it's still not enough for me to form an opinion on Chailly as a conductor. So I might as well take your word for it as far as his conducting abilities go, for the moment.

[Lilas Pastia]

The older Haitink recording however has some very special qualities, a lot of fine musical detail and a great feeling for the poetic substance of the music, plus you get the old Concertgebouw sound with the really dark horns and beepy woodwinds, so I would definitely recommend this one above the competent, but routined and streamlined Chailly recording.

Those very dark "bottled" horns and piping woodwinds (plus dark velvet strings) are the reason I treasure so many COA discs from the sixties and early seventies. Why has this changed ? Is it Chailly who rooted out of the orchestra those really special tonal qualities?

Blomstedt was on record for wanting to root out from the Gewandhaus orchestra the 'east german' sound.

[M forever]

I doubt that very much. The sound of the GOL isn't "East German" in that it is specifically somehow from that period, although the use of vibrato is something that came up in the mid-60s or so. It is much older than that. The relative isolation of the GDR has actually helped preserve that old German sound style, as in Dresden and East Berlin.
Blomstedt has always shown a very good feeling for that specific kind of sound, as we have seen from his great work with the Staatskapelle Dresden in the 70s and 80s. It may be that he wanted the GOL brass to play with a little less vibrato which is OK because that is a fairly recent stylistic layer of the playing. Although the way it was done in Leipzig and Dresden was a direct extension of the kind of sound production they have cultivated there for a long time, so it can be seen as an expressive development, not an alien element. If you listen to the recordings of the Alpensinfonie with the SD conducted by Böhm (1957) and Kempe (1971), you can hear that the tone production is very similar in its very flexible, vibrant way which allows the notes to develop and sound rather thn forcing them (except for in extreme dynamic situations), with or without a little extra vibrato on top.
A similar stylistic continuity can be heard in recordings of the GOL from the 40s-90s, including Blomstedt's recordings with the orchestra in the 90s. They sound extremely "Leipzig", and the way Blomstedt worked with the SFS which basically sounds very different still shows a very similar approach to tone production and playing style.

Chailly has been "accused" of "modernizing" the Amsterdam sound too much, but in fact, you can hear that the sound became noticeably brighter and more "brilliant" before him, especially in the brass. I think that is a basically a similar reaction to the general demand for more "brilliant" and "impressive" playing that has been felt in many other places. I think the brass sound is now definitely too bright, especially the horns. There is absolutely nothing wrong with bright brass, but here it is definitely a loss of traditional qualities and character in favor of a more globalized, faceless sound. When you speak of "bottled" horns that is exactly right because the somewhat muffled darkness of the old horn sound was indeed achieved by closing the bell a little more with the hand than in some other schools of playing. A somewhat similar approach to playing the horn can still be heard to a certain degree by some American players (see NY and Cleveland), in the 60s and 70s it was very common in the US. That is a combination of deep, wide mouthpieces which give the sound more edge (and are easier and safer to play), and the darkening of the sound with the bell in the hand.

[bhodges]

Just saw this Salome in the store, with Teresa Stratas and Astrid Varnay, conducted by Böhm.  This apparently just came out on DVD in July (apparently it has been available on VHS for some time).  I can't wait to get this, but has anyone else seen it?



--Bruce

[M forever]

Yes, it's a very well known movie by Götz Friedrich, the late artistic director of the Deutsche Oper Berlin. Very graphic, with blood running down the walls and stuff like that. Great singers - Wiener Philharmoniker - Karl Böhm - a very easy decision. Buy.

[bhodges]

Very graphic, with blood running down the walls and stuff like that.

Thanks, sounds right up my alley.   

--Bruce

[M forever]

No, wait, I got confused, the one with the blood running down the walls is "Elektra".



I haven't seen the "Salome" movie yet. But based on how good "Elektra" is, I wouldn't hesitate.

[bhodges]

Not to worry: I'll probably eventually get the Elektra, too.

--Bruce

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks for those detailed answers. M.

Don't take my word for the Blomstedt quote. I heard it form one of this board's highly esteemed posters. But it may be a classic case of distorting wihtout checking. The actual comment may have to do with a particular aspect of their playing, not the whole orchestra's.  In any case, the litmus test of idiomatic playing was passed with flying colours by Blomstedt and the Dresdeners in their recording of the Bruckner 7th, and by the Leipzigers in the 9th. Glorious both.

[M forever]

Yes, Blomstedt harmonized very well with and was highly respected by both orchestras. Neither of them has to pass any tests for idiomatic playing though since they are among those orchestras which *define* the idiomatic way to play the German-Austrian repertoire, or wide parts of that spectrum (as it is a spectrum rather than a narrowly defineable set of stylistic and sonic means).

[marvinbrown]

Just saw this Salome in the store, with Teresa Stratas and Astrid Varnay, conducted by Böhm.  This apparently just came out on DVD in July (apparently it has been available on VHS for some time).  I can't wait to get this, but has anyone else seen it?



--Bruce

  Hi Bruce, yes I have seen that Salome and I highly recommend it.  It is a movie opera, much like the ELEKTRA M Forever was referring to. A word of caution though, I saw the VHS recording and it did not have any subtitles, I do not know if the DVD version has subtitles but would hope yes, unless you speak German of course.

  PS: it is not as bloody as Bohm's ELEKTRA.
  marvin

[M forever]

The DG website says:
STEREO: PCM / SURROUND: DTS 5.1 · Picture Format: 4:3
Subtitles: German/English/French/Spanish/Chinese

[marvinbrown]

The DG website says:
STEREO: PCM / SURROUND: DTS 5.1 · Picture Format: 4:3
Subtitles: German/English/French/Spanish/Chinese

  Great, I think I'll buy it as well.

  marvin

[not edward]

I notice MDT has a special on Elatus, at a price reduced to below Naxos, so I'm considering a few things from here.

Anyone have particular comments on these?

Sinopoli's Berg and Webern with the Staatskapelle Dresden.
Berio's orchestrations of Mahler's early songs.
Harnoncourt's Schumann 1 and Piano Concerto with the CoE and Argerich.
Sanderling's Cleveland Shostakovitch 15.

(Or recommendations of any other essential recordings on that label: I do see some tempting-looking Mravinsky items in the catalogue.)

[Drasko]

I'd skip that Harnoncourt disc since his complete Schumann, symphonies and concertos are getting released as a box by Warner (probably budget).

Leonskaja/Borodins Shostakovich disc is fantastic (Quintet, Trio op.67). I actually prefer their quintet to more famous Richter/Borodins.

One disc that is on my wishlist (and it might interest you as well) is Munch/Lamoureux Roussel 3rd and 4th.

I believe all those Mravinsky recordings were the ones previously available on Erato.

[Mark]

Harnoncourt's Beethoven Symphonies. Heard his Ninth and loved it. On this basis, will I like the rest?

[M forever]

Harnoncourt's Schumann 1 and Piano Concerto with the CoE and Argerich.

I'd skip that Harnoncourt disc since his complete Schumann, symphonies and concertos are getting released as a box by Warner (probably budget).

Indeed, that is worth waiting for, and in the meantime, you can treat yourself to this fabulous live recording of Schubert and Schumann 4s

Used copies of this are available for very little from amazon.com and probably from other online sellers.

Sinopoli's Berg and Webern with the Staatskapelle Dresden.

Great stuff. The SD's burnished "old world" sound and highly lyrical playing style combined with Sinopoli's intelligent and analytical approach make this among the musically best (and best sounding) performances of this repertoire. Also check out their recording of Schönberg's Gurrelieder!

[Renfield]

Harnoncourt's Beethoven Symphonies. Heard his Ninth and loved it. On this basis, will I like the rest?

Given that I personally find his 9th the - comparatively - worst of a great lot, I think you will.

[not edward]

Indeed, that is worth waiting for, and in the meantime, you can treat yourself to this fabulous live recording of Schubert and Schumann 4s

Used copies of this are available for very little from amazon.com and probably from other online sellers.

Is this the 1841 version or the revised one? (I already have Harnoncourt's recording of the 1841 with the CoE).

Funnily enough, the amazon.ca low vendor price for it is $49.02 - quite a difference from the US one.

Great stuff. The SD's burnished "old world" sound and highly lyrical playing style combined with Sinopoli's intelligent and analytical approach make this among the musically best (and best sounding) performances of this repertoire. Also check out their recording of Schönberg's Gurrelieder!

Sounds like what I was hoping for.

[M forever]

Is this the 1841 version or the revised one? (I already have Harnoncourt's recording of the 1841 with the CoE).

This is the revised version. So you are't even "duplicating" much here. Besides, this Schumann reading is in its overall effect very different from the COE recordings. Equally, the Schubert 4 is rather different from Harnoncourt's Amsterdam recording. You can hear the same musical principles at work in all these performances, but the different chemistries between NH and these three orchestras all of which have their own strong character lead to rather different results. What they all have in common is NH's almost unique ability to let an orchestra play in very natural, breathing phrases with "just right" microtiming of rhythmical detail. These BP performances are "bigger" an "punchier" than the other ones, but still very articulated and eloquently phrased. And very "live". I heard the live concert when they recorded that. The air in the Philharmonie was on fire.