Frustrated/bored with GMG

[Sergeant Rock]

Those stats are misleading. Elgar's thread is full of nonsense. Count the posts with real substance and you'll get the real picture. Also, Mahler is discussed a lot elsewhere too like "CDs I am considering" thread.

There is some nonsense, yes, but a lot of that nonsense was started by you. You insist on being a free thinker...well, good for you, but you have to understand that when you invent your own theories about music many people are going to laugh and not take you seriously. It comes with the territory. And you have to know by now that comparing Elgar to composers you know only superficially is going to get you into trouble. But really, there's a lot of good stuff there, too, and I am sorry it got bogged down.

Elgar is discussed elsewhere too. Karl started an Elgar thread and recordings are discussed elsewhere...not like Mahler and Bruckner, I admit, but Elgar only wrote two symphonies (plus one unfinished). Bruckner and Mahler's total is 21. That partially explains the discrepancy. There's just more to talk about. Elgar wrote a lot of choral music but you know choral music in general isn't very popular. Look how empty the Vocal board is. And Elgar wrote a ton of minor stuff...I like it, but there isn't much to discuss.

I admit I don't know anything about those composers (Stenhammar maybe) but it would be refreshing to see discussion of those composers. 

It would be refreshing but I doubt the threads would go beyond a page or two.

Well, I am a Finnish Elgarian. Sinopoli? Interesting. I haven't heard anything from him...

I have an extra copy of Sinopoli's Elgar 2. It might show up in your mailbox someday 

Sarge

[Choo Choo]

When you have heard many composers you start to see who of them are above the others.

Again: that may be how you listen to music - but you're wrong if you assume all people listen in the same way.  Buxtehude was one of the first composers I listened to, and I liked him then - and I like him now, still.  I dont like him any less or any more, just because I happen to have heard a lot more composers in the interim.  I really could not give a rat's ass which composers are considered "above the others".  That sort of consideration may weigh with you: to me it has nothing whatsoever to do with the enjoyment of listening to music.

[Don]

I think that is essentially correct, but a shooting match at a sitting duck isn't that much fun after a while. Aside from that 71 dB has good points to make in this thread .

Obviously, it's been fun for a few board members (names not provided).

[71 dB]

There is some nonsense, yes, but a lot of that nonsense was started by you. You insist on being a free thinker...well, good for you, but you have to understand that when you invent your own theories about music many people are going to laugh and not take you seriously. It comes with the territory. And you have to know by now that comparing Elgar to composers you know only superficially is going to get you into trouble. But really, there's a lot of good stuff there, too, and I am sorry it got bogged down.

Elgar is discussed elsewhere too. Karl started an Elgar thread and recordings are discussed elsewhere...not like Mahler and Bruckner, I admit, but Elgar only wrote two symphonies (plus one unfinished). Bruckner and Mahler's total is 21. That partially explains the discrepancy. There's just more to talk about. Elgar wrote a lot of choral music but you know choral music in general isn't very popular. Look how empty the Vocal board is. And Elgar wrote a ton of minor stuff...I like it, but there isn't much to discuss.

I admit you have point here. Elgar would be much less discussed if it wasn't for me. I take the credit for making him a topic here and I think I deserve it. Yes, Mahler and Bruckner wrote much more symphonies but that's almost all they wrote.

I have an extra copy of Sinopoli's Elgar 2. It might show up in your mailbox someday 

Sarge

Oh dear Sarge!  I am still recovering from the last package you sent me. I have listened to Dvorak 9, the Bruckners and Mahler 1. I think I prefer Bruckner over Mahler.

[71 dB]

Again: that may be how you listen to music - but you're wrong if you assume all people listen in the same way.  Buxtehude was one of the first composers I listened to, and I liked him then - and I like him now, still.  I dont like him any less or any more, just because I happen to have heard a lot more composers in the interim.  I really could not give a rat's ass which composers are considered "above the others".  That sort of consideration may weigh with you: to me it has nothing whatsoever to do with the enjoyment of listening to music.

I did like Buxtehude from to beginning too. Are we different?

[bhodges]

I haven't heard all composers, not even close but still I am confident I will never find a composer greater than Elgar.

71 dB, may I point out -- politely -- that the above sentence is really setting you up to be constantly disappointed? 

We all have composers we adore, and want to listen to over and over.  Some of mine: Bartók, Ives, Berg, Mahler, Ligeti, and many others -- and Elgar!  I love Elgar (although I don't consider myself an "Elgarian," just a big fan of his work).  And sure, I want others to share my enthusiasm, my adoration, my passion for all these.  I wish more people found the pleasure that I do in the work of Xenakis! 

But that said, I don't think any composer is "essential" for one's love of classical music.  I do think everyone should at least hear some Beethoven, some Stravinsky, some Bach, some Webern -- just to know what these people are saying.  But none of these is necessary for a fulfilling classical music life; there are just far too many composers around (and from the past).  One can cross off a few one's personal list.  If you don't like Beethoven, fine.  I don't listen to much Bach or Handel, for example.  Do I think they are great composers?  Undeniably yes.  But other idioms speak to me more expressively, more clearly, more passionately, more pleasurably. 

Further, I have to allow for the possibility that a composer will come along -- someone I haven't heard before -- who may trump all of these!  If you are "confident you will never find a composer greater than [Composer X]" then you have pretty much closed the door to any new influences.  And I think one component of happiness, and that feeling of being alive, is being open to new composers, new music, new experiences.

--Bruce

[Choo Choo]

I did like Buxtehude from to beginning too. Are we different?

Yes I think so.  It seems to be important to you that your enthusiasms - in this case, the music of Buxtehude - be widely acknowledged as better than others;  as if your enjoyment of Buxtehude would be increased if others esteemed him as you do, and diminished if they don't.  I do not think like that.  This is not an election for public office, and I am not canvassing for "my" candidate.  Over in the Terry Riley thread is a small gathering of enthusiasts for a largely-unknown contemporary composer.  Does it affect me in any way, that there is no wider interest in this composer?  It does not.  In fact I would be more concerned if there were a sudden outburst of interest.  This is a dish which does not appeal to every palate.  Case closed.

[Don]

I admit you have point here. Elgar would be much less discussed if it wasn't for me. I take the credit for making him a topic here and I think I deserve it. Yes, Mahler and Bruckner wrote much more symphonies but that's almost all they wrote.

It's comments like the above that make you a target.  You give yourself far too much credit while putting other composers down to lift your favorites.

[M forever]

71dB's posts are not about music or composers, two subjects he understands next to nothing about and has next to nothing of substance and value to share or discuss. Nor are they about musical performance and interpretation, areas he knows nothing about either.

His posts are all about *himself*, nothing else, about his strange, completely random preconceptions and biases and how he sees himself as a "free-thinker" and bold challenger of "conventional wisdom".

However, to challenge and deconstruct "conventional wisdom", one must first be at least on the level of that wisdom, be able to understand it, then one can point out where conventional wisdom is wrong, where it doesn't fit together.

People who can actually do that are highly interesting and challenging discussion partners.

But 71dB is neither because, like I said, his posts are all about himself, and frankly, that's not such a fascinating subject.

That he doesn't understand that he doesn't come across as a "free-thinker" who shows people new avenues of thinking, but simply as someone with no clue who somehow is delusional enough to decide that he has those incredible powers of hearing and understanding music without even understanding the basics of that craft and art, that is the reason why it is simply not possible, even with the greatest amount of goodwill, to take him seriously as a discussion partner.

And that is the reason for him being frustrated/bored with GMG, and apparently with life in general.

But, now, in this thread, he is at the center of attention, so that should make him happy for a while, shouldn't it?

It still doesn't have anything to do with music, though.

And, BTW, 71dB is the worst kind of "advocate" any composer, Elgar or whoever, could have.

[Sergeant Rock]

I have listened to Dvorak 9, the Bruckners and Mahler 1. I think I prefer Bruckner over Mahler.

Your prerogative. I instantly fell in love with Mahler but Bruckner took five years before I finally "got" him. Life and music is like that. I just hope you continue to listen to Mahler, too, at least occasionally. He may grow on you

Sarge

[71 dB]

Yes I think so.  It seems to be important to you that your enthusiasms - in this case, the music of Buxtehude - be widely acknowledged as better than others;  as if your enjoyment of Buxtehude would be increased if others esteemed him as you do, and diminished if they don't.  I do not think like that.  This is not an election for public office, and I am not canvassing for "my" candidate.  Over in the Terry Riley thread is a small gathering of enthusiasts for a largely-unknown contemporary composer.  Does it affect me in any way, that there is no wider interest in this composer?  It does not.  In fact I would be more concerned if there were a sudden outburst of interest.  This is a dish which does not appeal to every palate.  Case closed.

I undestand what you mean but I'd say you have misunderstood me. I don't expect everybody praise Buxtehude, I want to see people explore Buxtehude-like obscure composers with open mind and find their own favorites. In other worlds, I respect personal taste no matter how close or far away it is my taste.

About Terry Riley: I have his Piano Music on Telarc (Gloria Cheng Cochran). Nice stuff.

[71 dB]

Your prerogative. I instantly fell in love with Mahler but Bruckner took five years before I finally "got" him. Life and music is like that. I just hope you continue to listen to Mahler, too, at least occasionally. He may grow on you

Sarge

Mahler is good too but Bruckner seems to be closer to my taste. Musically Bruckner is somewhere between Wagner and Elgar.

[71 dB]

71dB's posts are not about music or composers, two subjects he understands next to nothing about and has next to nothing of substance and value to share or discuss.

This isn't the first time you say this and this is what totally ruined my self-esteem, thank you! I have been listening to classical music intensively for almost 11 years. If all these years haven't teached me anything then how can I ever learn anything about anything?

Harry & Sarge: This is the only thing I say. That's it.

[Topaz]

.......  Lately I have felt bored/frustrated with this forum. Somehow I feel myself very different from others and I don't feel I can connect with anyone (well, with Harry perhaps).

The grass is greener....

If you try another forum you'll find they all have their deficiencies.  I've been most places.  This one's my latest and was put off joining earlier because it's so big. 

I won't mention any names but some Forums are dying and some are like death warmed up. The ones that seem alive are generally full of children and teenagers, mostly with one-liner posts comprising a string of obscure smilies.  Others have dragons as Adminstrators who butt into almost everything that goes on. 

I'll say no more ...

[paul]

No. Laughed at the preoccupations of his music. If people listened to his music with open ears they'd change their mind but they can't because they are narrow-minded.

I'm not sure what you mean by "laughed at the preoccupations of his music". Do you mean your preoccupation with his music and people laughing at you? Up until now I've never read anything you have to say Dittersdorf. I'm familiar with a number of his compositions, and while Ditters might have have a great success pleasing the audiences of his time, his music is pretty much conventional, cookie-cutter classical era stuff. He rarely does anything out of the ordinary in his pieces and comes across as pretty boring. I've played his second double bass concerto and Sinfonia Concertante for bass, viola, and orchestra so I'm sure my relationship with Dittersdorf's music is a little more intimate than yours. Those pieces can be very nice if played in the correct way, but they never really reach that level of greatness that say Haydn or Mozart achieved. I had a hard time listening to Uwe Grodd and the Failoni Orchestra play through three of his symphonies on a Naxos CD and also had difficulty listening to his oratorio Giob simply because they're so predictable. I wish Ditters would surprise me once in a while.

(Now if you want to talk about a neglected classical composer, check out Vanhal's Symphony in C minor played by Matthias Bambert and the London Mozart Players. Wow! Really great material there.)

But if people responding to your inane posts is actually causing you real life grief, maybe it's better that you stop posting. I, for one, think that the responses that you're getting are healthy in some ways, because they're pointing out your faults. I think that everyone needs to be put in their place every once in a while, otherwise how are we to grow as people? Instead of acting childish maybe you should read the criticisms and think about them.

[71 dB]

The grass is greener....

If you try another forum you'll find they all have their deficiencies. 

I agree. For example, every forum has their troublemakers. The Finnish hometheater forum I am a member of is perhaps different. troublemakers are banned immediately and the forum is heavily moderated. Makes the place actually comfortable.

[Larry Rinkel]

I won't mention any names but some Forums are dying and some are like death warmed up. The ones that seem alive are generally full of children and teenagers, mostly with one-liner posts comprising a string of obscure smilies.  Others have dragons as Adminstrators who butt into almost everything that goes on. 

I would call that a gem of a post.

[71 dB]

I'm not sure what you mean by "laughed at the preoccupations of his music". Do you mean your preoccupation with his music and people laughing at you? Up until now I've never read anything you have to say Dittersdorf. I'm familiar with a number of his compositions, and while Ditters might have have a great success pleasing the audiences of his time, his music is pretty much conventional, cookie-cutter classical era stuff. He rarely does anything out of the ordinary in his pieces and comes across as pretty boring. I've played his second double bass concerto and Sinfonia Concertante for bass, viola, and orchestra so I'm sure my relationship with Dittersdorf's music is a little more intimate than yours. Those pieces can be very nice if played in the correct way, but they never really reach that level of greatness that say Haydn or Mozart achieved. I had a hard time listening to Uwe Grodd and the Failoni Orchestra play through three of his symphonies on a Naxos CD and also had difficulty listening to his oratorio Giob simply because they're so predictable. I wish Ditters would surprise me once in a while.

(Now if you want to talk about a neglected classical composer, check out Vanhal's Symphony in C minor played by Matthias Bambert and the London Mozart Players. Wow! Really great material there.)

But if people responding to your inane posts is actually causing you real life grief, maybe it's better that you stop posting. I, for one, think that the responses that you're getting are healthy in some ways, because they're pointing out your faults. I think that everyone needs to be put in their place every once in a while, otherwise how are we to grow as people? Instead of acting childish maybe you should read the criticisms and think about them.

I find Dittersdorf's symphonies better than Mozart's early symphonies and better than most symphonies by Haydn. I love Giob. Predictable maybe but the music is beautiful and enjoyable (somehow the melody/harmony structure really works). I enjoy Vanhal's symphonies too! Another neglected figure!   

[AnthonyAthletic]

Your prerogative. I instantly fell in love with Mahler but Bruckner took five years before I finally "got" him. Life and music is like that. I just hope you continue to listen to Mahler, too, at least occasionally. He may grow on you

Sarge

Sarge (All), talking about prerogatives and this thread.  I expect there are a chunk of people on this forum like myself who don't talk about the composers whom 71db stated earlier in the thread such as Bruhns and co. simply because many posters, myself included have not discovered them yet, have little inkling to do so or have a niche to conquer yet?

For instance, the Stravinsky box I have on order hopefully will give me a great insight into his works, of which the surface has hardly been scratched (I own 4 maybe 5 Stravinsky cds) some have duplicate works on them, of course.  This set hopefully will give me the chance to capture what the composer is all about, crash course, en bloc.  Then onto the forum to discuss any particular work and find out more from the people who know more than I do.

What 71db must realize is that there must be many posters who don't have the music of Bruhns, Dittersdorf or particular composers whom any individual wants to talk about.  That's why I consider myself on the side of a GMG reader over a GMG poster, there are hundreds of threads about x or y whom I haven't heard and can not comment on...but you do something about it, if you feel the need to.  No need to complain, how often have I jumped on these boards and said 'you idiots know nothing about Chinese Music, here's me sat with 20 cds from the Chinese Marco Polo series and not once have we had a lengthy discussion about them'?  If it ever happens, I will be there. 

Same as if I ever truly discover Wagner, I will be there.  My Wagner listening is pitiful and I do admit that the thought of Wagner downright scares me.  I have had Kleiber's Tristan sat there smiling at me for a year now saying 'when are you going to play me...fatty'?  And I still can't give it an answer.  I have Bohm's Ring Cycle sat there now for 3 months which also says to me, 'if you can't get your act together to do Tristan, then you may as well blow me out of your ass'.  To which I answer, give me time I will get there.

I hope 71db realizes that its swings and roundabouts, there is too much music out there to come onto a forum and complain that nobody talks about x or y, when I may be right in saying that posters don't own or few of us do, works by the named x or y?

Bruhns, who the hell is he?  I am not being spiteful or agressive, simply, I just do not know yet...so no conversation.  Some posters take curiosity for flaming, sometimes.

And yes, I am an Elgarian and the Sinopoli you mentioned is one of the few I do not own, and as I have said before its one which has gone into the memory pot, if I see it crop up around town.

[mahlertitan]

very true, why can't 71db just shut up! i am not bitching about people not discussing enough Chinese music or other obscure composers, so why should him?