Frustrated/bored with GMG

[71 dB]

you have been ignoring all your life, i suppose, ignorance IS bliss after all, why are all the people coming after you? Maybe there is something wrong with YOU? and not them? why are they writing "wierd" and "un(dis)respectful" comments? They don't do it to other people,  why only to you?

Nobody is perfect and I have my faults, of course. But I try to free-think and question things. That's not a bad thing, is it? I may not be well educated when it comes to music theory but at least I am into classical music a lot unlike the vast majority of population listening to rap and heavy metal unable to enjoy Beethoven's string quartets like we do.

Just think about how open YOU are to new thoughts. Now I have to leave to work.

[The new erato]

Nobody is perfect and I have my faults, of course. But I try to free-think and question things. That's not a bad thing, is it? I may not be well educated when it comes to music theory but at least I am into classical music a lot unlike the vast majority of population listening to rap and heavy metal unable to enjoy Beethoven's string quartets like we do.

Just think about how open YOU are to new thoughts. Now I have to leave to work.

I guess I'm relatively open to new thoughts; some of my favorite cmposers are guys you probably have enot heard a single work from while I'm relatively familiar with Bruhns, Buxtehude, Elgar (have recently heard the 30 CD Collectors Edition - though my coonecctionwith Elgar goes more than 30 years back), Buxtehude (share your enthusiasm).

Beeing free thinking is one thing. Trying to prove that Elgar is a better composer than Beethoven (to take one example) - that is; elevating Elgar by denigrating other composers which seems to be your standard procedure with anything you like - requires facts, schooling and a lot of stuff you simply don't have by you own admission. So stop doing that.

[knight66]

And still the madness persists. In stereo now, apparently ...

Yes, instead of deep calling unto deep, we have shallow calling unto shallow.

Let them get on with it folks and engage on the topics around them.

Mike

[Ephemerid]

As much as I love Debussy, as brilliant as I think his music is (one of my top two favourite composers, along with Bach), I am not going to go about saying Debussy is a greater composer (or more "complex" composer or whatever) than Beethoven or whoever, or to elevate Debussy at the expense of denigrating other composers.

As much as I love Beethoven, I do have a personal preference for Debussy even over (most) Beethoven-- but that is all it is: a personal preference. 

The thing is, I couldn't care less who is The World's Greatest Composer^TM or who is more complex or who is better than composer x, y, or z.  I'm not interested in cutting contests-- I'm interested in listening to composers that interest me in a particular moment.  I don't have to JUSTIFY why I am listening to them-- I'm not that insecure in my listening.

It doesn't bother me that there are other for whom maybe Debussy is a bore, or that he wasn't particularly prolific, or that he doesn't possess the same great universality that Beethoven possesses.  That's their loss, and its a shame.  But then, I have problems connecting to certain composers myself.  But when someone comes along who DOES like Debussy, hey, that's great, but I don't need to label myself a "Debussian"-- I just dig his music.  That's enough for me.    So I don't feel the need to tell everyone "Debussy is underrated and Beethoven is overrated." 

I guess what I'm trying to say, Poju, is you can have your favourites, but you don't have to try to justify some sort of objective reasons why Elgar is a "Great Composer" or whatever.  You don't need some external confirmation from anyone to justify why you love Elgar so much.  It seems like you want to have that external confirmation, some sort of objective justification as to why you think Elgar is so much better than Beethoven, but you don't need to do that.  When you do, it comes off sounding absurd (no more absurd than if I tried to "prove" that Debussy was a "superior" composer to Beethoven). 

You don't need to feel so insecure about your own personal loves.  I suspect the real reason you love Elgar is not because you think in comparison to Beethoven he is more "complex", but because simply there is something in his music that speaks to you.  Its only when you take your subjective feelings and try to make some sort of unconvincing objective statement on Elgar's "complexity" and so on that it becomes quite absurd.  One upmanship is a very boring game IMO (whether it is "Beethoven is greater than Elgar" or "Elgar is greater than Beethoven"), so why bother playing it?   

In the meantime, you can still express your love for Elgar-- not as Elgar contra Beethoven, but as Elgar qua Elgar.  I know which approach might make me more interested in exploring Elgar further.   

That's just my $0.02, Poju.

[Harry]

Okay lets settle this argument, Elgar is the greatest composer that ever lived, in Poju's opinion.
That is fair to say, right?
Me, well I think Telemann is the greatest!
And hard on his heels, Boccherini I guess.

[The new erato]

In the meantime, you can still express your love for Elgar-- not as Elgar contra Beethoven, but as Elgar qua Elgar.  I know which approach might make me more interested in exploring Elgar further.   

I'm sure 71dB has done more to put people off Elgar than any other person i know.

Wise words BTW.

[(poco) Sforzando]

But I try to free-think and question things. That's not a bad thing, is it?

Questioning things is fine. What you apparently don't (and should) question are your own motives in thinking and writing something like the following:

I have to say many of you have wrote weird and unrespectful comments. Luckily I have learned to ignore. Makes life easier.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I will soon do a short review on 3 historic Ring cycles.

Yeah? Which ones?

[BachQ]

I will soon do a short review on 3 historic Ring cycles.

We're marking our calendars ........ and gathering our notepads .........

[karlhenning]

Okay lets settle this argument, Elgar is the greatest composer that ever lived, in Poju's opinion.
That is fair to say, right?

Sure.

Me, well I think Telemann is the greatest!

No! You cannot mean it!

[paulb]

As much as I love Beethoven, I do have a personal preference for Debussy even over (most) Beethoven-- but that is all it is: a personal preference. 

I promise you, in the future you will not hold this same opinion, these feelings for Beethoven will fade and be replaced by stronger emotional attachment for Debussy.
I promise you in the distant future this will happen.
I'm no psychic , but have a  strong intuition.

I know, i know, you say that will not happen, that you will never lose your love for Beethoven.
anyway, just never forget what i just wrote....

Is Elgar a better composer than Beethoven?
Does 71 actually ever say this?
What he INTENDS to mean, is that Elgar holds more meaning than does Beethoven.
I wish you guys would STOP reading between lines and start trying to mature in understanding.

[paulb]

Nobody is perfect and I have my faults, of course. But I try to free-think and question things. That's not a bad thing, is it? I may not be well educated when it comes to music theory but at least I am into classical music a lot unlike the vast majority of population listening to rap and heavy metal unable to enjoy Beethoven's string quartets like we do.

Just think about how open YOU are to new thoughts. Now I have to leave to work.

71, you are on the right path.
Do not let the dragons scare you at the bridge crossover.
You are being challenged, seek a  graeter source of power within.
You may lose a  few men along the way, but you will slay and overcome.
Fear not.

[Florestan]

Paul, you said you were a Christian. Has it ever occured to you that there may be a time for Chopin and a time for Schnittke? A time for Debussy and a time for Beethoven? Or even a time for Boccherini and a time for Petterson?

[karlhenning]

I promise you, in the future you will not hold this same opinion, these feelings for Beethoven will fade and be replaced by stronger emotional attachment for Debussy.
I promise you in the distant future this will happen.
I'm no psychic , but have a  strong intuition.

This post is rare piffle, even for you, Paul 

You have simply no idea of how anyone else's listening experience will arc.

Period.

Your "intuition" here is balderdash.

[greg]

And still the madness persists. In stereo now, apparently ...

and at full volume....

[(poco) Sforzando]

Is Elgar a better composer than Beethoven?
Does 71 actually ever say this?
What he INTENDS to mean, is that Elgar holds more meaning than does Beethoven.
I wish you guys would STOP reading between lines and start trying to mature in understanding.

Indeed. 71 never says anything that would lead you to think he considers Elgar the greatest of composers. Nothing whatever. Why, the proof is revealed in a 5-minute search from his very posts:

Elgar's first symphony is perhaps the most matured and sophisticated first symphony ever. Elgar was very experienced and skilfull composer at the time he wrote it. In fact I think Elgar's first is the best first symphony ever!

I agree with this. I believe J.S. Bach is liked by masses mainly for his mastery of melody rather than contrapuntal skills. He is the second greatest composer ever after Elgar for me and far from simpletons, established or not.

Actually Elgar's 2nd is the best symphony I have heard followed by the first. Why I find them so good is difficult to explain for a person without musical education. I like Elgar's themes and how he plays with them creating complexity. I like his orchestral sounds. I like the way Elgar creates multidimensional art out of musical dimensions. It just is extremely enjoyable music. I haven't seen much better answer by other members, even with musical education.

Mahler good
Bruckner better
Elgar best

Before I came to this forum I assumed everyone seriously into classical music has J. S. Bach in their top 5 of the greatest composers. I was shocked to find out many do not care about his music!  For me Bach is insanely good, so good I value him almost as high as Elgar! These two are the only composers whose musical output exceeds human capabilities in my opinion. They are Gods!

I am not questioning Bruckners greatness. I am just trying to hint people that Elgar is much greater than they think. Elgar's music blows me away. Bruckner's music has not. If Bruckner indeed is better it isn't helping me.

Well, I suppose that's the case since so many love Sibelius' music. Similarly I can say what some see as "turgid" or "overblown" in Elgar, I (and other Elgarians I suppose) see as divine control of very complex musical structures, ideas and strong thematic material.

My top 10:
Elgar
Bach
Handel
Mozart
Buxtehude
Bruhns
Rameau
Haydn
Villa-Lobos
Beethoven

Your top three symphonists:
1. Sir Edward Elgar
2. Carl Nielsen
3. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Have it occured to you that if I keep promoting Elgar eventually I learn how to do it right?

To me The Apostles is Elgar's greatest work. Nevertheless, almost any work by Elgar beats Fidelio.  
Missa Solemnis would provide much tougher competion...

The Apostles hands down. It's the greatest music ever!

So STOP reading between the lines, guys.

[BachQ]

this time came back witha VENGENCE

[paulb]

Paul, you said you were a Christian. Has it ever occured to you that there may be a time for Chopin and a time for Schnittke? A time for Debussy and a time for Beethoven? Or even a time for Boccherini and a time for Petterson?

You are refering to that line ascribed to King Solomon. There is a  season for everything under the sun.
The idea that the Bryds made famous.
I alwaays loved that song, but only recently understand it,
btw Solomon reigned from 971 - 931. Posessed profound wisdom in many areas of life. That same spirit of gnosis that was Moses. A spirit of knowledge which manifested itself at certain times throughout world history.
Job 6th C BC (?), Heraclitus 535-475, Empedocles 490-430, Socrates 470-399 Lao tzu , 6th C BC.

"a  time for death and a time for rebirth"
What was life for many in the epoch of the 19th C, may not hold that same form of life giving energy for those in the epoch of the 21st C.
The 19th C epoch still had vestiges of the epoch's that went before.
the plow and mule could be still seen working fields in the 19th C.
what we have in the epoch of the 21st C is something all together new, never before seen or heard.
IOW we live in a  epoch of mythological proportions. This is a epoch of epic dimensions.
"things the eye has never seen, the ear has never heard"

Chopin was that epoch of the 19th C, par excellent.
His music to me sounds rather out of sorts with this epoch.
All i hear in Chopin is many beautiful notes neatly and fantastically arranged. ahh if only our would was just like that.  But alas........I only seek out music that reflects the world, this epoch of 2008  as I see and understand, life is too short at 52 yrs of age,  to bother with any other forms.

btw christianity partakes of nothing from that spirit of wisdom as manifested in Moses and Solomon.
This in SPITE of the fact that they ascribe to one who had superior wisdom than either Moses or Solomon.

[paulb]

This post is rare piffle, even for you, Paul 

You have simply no idea of how anyone else's listening experience will arc.

Period.

Your "intuition" here is balderdash.

I bow to thee, Oh hail to thee

[71 dB]

I'm sorry if I offended all Beethoven fans. In fact Beethoven is one of my favorites too. I admire his string quartets a lot. But, I simply enjoy Elgar's orchestral music more than that of Beethoven. Elgar is in my opinion timbrally superior. Timbral dimension comes mostly from orchestraltion so that's why I feel Elgar (and many other late romantics) is superior in orchestration. Just keep in mind I keep Beethoven in high esteem too.

My message has been: "Elgar is a brilliant composer, take his music seriously and give him a chance". I just have used very bad expressions and I recret that. What's worse, some "anti-Elgarians" have been able to agitate me to say stupid things. I hope I have learned to avoid this from now on.