Elgar and Berlioz Compared

[71 dB]

or even those of us who do like him, but somehow, in the final analysis, still prefer Beethoven, Bach etc.

Don't forget that Bach is almost on Elgar's level for me. The opening chorus of St. John Passion is mindblowing and pretty much on the level of Elgar's best moments. I don't think all other composers suck, Beethoven just do not need me, he is valued anyway.

[71 dB]

Note that I specifically mentioned No.I. No.II is far better. In any case, that's still no excuse for the cheese that is Starlight Express. His output is a hodgepodge of true genius and fluff.

I like Starlight Express very much. Not cheese to me.

"Best" as to what variables?

Musical impact.

[lukeottevanger]

Don't forget that Bach is almost on Elgar's level for me. The opening chorus of St. John Passion is mindblowing and pretty much on the level of Elgar's best moments.

Bach would be so pleased to hear that....

I don't think all other composers suck, Beethoven just do not need me, he is valued anyway.

I'm not sure Elgar actually needs you, to tell you the truth. He's doing perfectly well, is loved by millions of music lovers. You're not really helping him, though I think from reading your posts that you intend to. In fact what your posts are doing, if anything - like CPs old ones on Gould, and Eric's on Pelleas - is making us see Elgar through more disgruntled eyes.

[71 dB]

That's not an answer.

You make a bold claim that Brahms and Bruckner WANTED their music "academic" and "dry".

Where do you get your information?

Give sources. Not opinions.

You are right. I don't know what they wanted. Their music sounds "academic" and "dry" to me so I assumed they wanted that.




[/quote]

[MishaK]

Musical impact.

How does one measure that objectively?

[karlhenning]

Elgar's best is the best music I have heard. It makes me almost lose my conciousness because it's so good, it causes me muscle spasms etc. Even Bach's music does not do that to me.

Don't forget that Bach is almost on Elgar's level for me.

Their music sounds "academic" and "dry" to me so I assumed they wanted that.

I love reading this stuff, really I do.

For the record, Bach's music does not induce muscle spasm in me, either.

(I wonder if muscular spasm will catch on as a gauge of musical merit? . . .)

[lukeottevanger]

You are right. I don't know what they wanted. Their music sounds "academic" and "dry" to me so I assumed they wanted that.

Small point - if Elgar's music sounds tedious, overblown and derivative to me can I assume he wanted that? (Not that it does, often). Of course not - that would be too self-important a way of looking at it.

[71 dB]

I wish I could explain Elgar's music. Instead I need to explain stupid things.
I can't do anything right. Damn!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

You are right. I don't know what they wanted. Their music sounds "academic" and "dry" to me so I assumed they wanted that.

But leave Brahms and Bruckner to their own devices!

Enjoying Elgar shouldn''t necessitate an endless list of "what's wrong with the other guys".

Right?

I enjoy Martinu but that last thing I feel the need to do is compare him to anyone else.

[Don]

You are right. I don't know what they wanted. Their music sounds "academic" and "dry" to me so I assumed they wanted that.

The hole you've dug for yourself is getting deeper and deeper.  To assume you know the motivation of a composer simply by your reaction to his/her music is taking "the self" to an entirely unreasonable level.

[karlhenning]

I enjoy Martinu but that last thing I feel the need to do is compare him to anyone else.

Excellent, donwyn!

Though I admit, I was not much expecting any, "I love Martinů's work, and he just leaves Berlioz in the dust," from you :-)

[karlhenning]

Though I admit, I was not much expecting any, "I love Martinů's work, and he just leaves Berlioz in the dust," from you :-)

Dang! I really must break out the Koncert pro dva smyčcové orchestry, klavír a tympány tomorrow!

[Catison]

The problem is that "great" is a word for dilettantes.  It has absolutely no meaning and therefore arguing about what it does mean seems rather innane.

[71 dB]

Enjoying Elgar shouldn''t necessitate an endless list of "what's wrong with the other guys".

Right?

And enjoying other guys shouldn''t necessitate an endless list of "what's wrong with Elgar".

I enjoy Martinu but that last thing I feel the need to do is compare him to anyone else.

I enjoy many many composers.

[Don]

And enjoying other guys shouldn''t necessitate an endless list of "what's wrong with Elgar".

Nothing's wrong with Elgar or enjoying his music more than any other composer's works.  Come to think of it, there's nothing wrong with me either.

[MishaK]

And enjoying other guys shouldn''t necessitate an endless list of "what's wrong with Elgar".

Indeed, it doesn't. But claiming that he is the greatest of all times, necessitates responses straightening out that misperception. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

And enjoying other guys shouldn''t necessitate an endless list of "what's wrong with Elgar".

I haven't said, nor implied, anything of the sort.

I enjoy many many composers.

So do I yet you took it upon yourself to imply - in writing - that MY listening habits are bound up in "the greats" alone (a few posts back).

You make far too many assertions that are completely untenable. That's what we're on about. Not whether Elgar is greater than Brahms...or vice versa.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Excellent, donwyn!

Though I admit, I was not much expecting any, "I love Martinu's work, and he just leaves Berlioz in the dust," from you :-)

One would hope...

But then again, we haven't touched on this, have we?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Dang! I really must break out the Koncert pro dva smy?cové orchestry, klavír a tympány tomorrow!

There's a spiffy recording of this work by Karel Senja and the CPO on Supraphon. It's a tough disc to locate these days but worth it all the same.

[71 dB]

Nothing's wrong with Elgar or enjoying his music more than any other composer's works.  Come to think of it, there's nothing wrong with me either.

Indeed, it doesn't. But claiming that he is the greatest of all times, necessitates responses straightening out that misperception. 

I haven't said, nor implied, anything of the sort.

That's good. Everything is okay then except it bothers me to be an outsider. It's okay to like symphonies of any other composer but if I say I prefer Elgar's symphonies people are like "What? You like Elgar's 2nd symphony?" Well, it just happens to be the best symphony I have heard in my life. Until I hear a better one it will be the best symphony in the world for me. If there were 10 times more Elgarians in the world I wouldn't perhaps feel an alien, but there aren't. I had a text "The only Elgar fan in Finland" text on my website. Then I got an email from another Elgar fan asking me to change the text because I am not the only one.  So funny!